HUD States Mold testing mandatory!!

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1

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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Hi Pepele,


Well, In my never ending quest to let everyone know about MOLD, here is an article from HUD!!

I thought this very important info for your members who are against mold sampling...it is now required to do an actual sample, not an visible inspection, PRIOR to closing escrow on residential real property. Please read below:


On Monday, HUD released a "Radon Gas and Mold Notice and Release Agreement".
The Department is "requiring that the attached agreement be included with
all sales contracts to ensure that all purchasers are aware that radon gas
and mold may cause health problems." In bold, capitalized, and underlined
letters, the Release Agreement states that "PURCHASERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO
OBTAIN THE SERVICES OF A QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED PROFESSIONAL TO CONDUCT
INSPECTIONS AND TESTS REGARDING RADON AND MOLD PRIOR TO CLOSING." The stated
purposes of the Release Agreement is to 1) provide "important information to
potential purchasers of HUD-acquired single family properties that radon gas
and some molds have the potential to cause serious health problems", and 2)
mitigate "potential liability to the Department and to HUD's management and
marketing (M&M) contractors". Hmmm, no mention of where to go for
information (e.g., the EPA website), so which do think they are really
concerned about?


To view these documents, go to www.hudclips.org/cgi/index_cliphome.cgi,
click on "2004 Housing Notices", then "Radon Gas and Mold Notice and Release
Agreement".

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

2

Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Ron,


I believe this pertains to HUD acquired homes only.


Erol Kartal

3

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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Hi Erol,


That is correct! However, when HUD speaks, everyone listenes!!

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

4

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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OK, so what level or amount or type will be deemed acceptable or unacceptable? In other words, has CDC or EPA come up with standards for mold testing?

5

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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I see the word “ENCOURAGED” used instead of required…


There is a difference.

--
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

6

Originally Posted By: Guest
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I suspect that means when doing an inspection the inspector should make sure to stay out of the way of the qualified mold testing specialist.

7

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Ron I don't know why, but you have been rather selective in your choice of quotes from this document, which is when at said and done only a HUD release form.

Here is a link to the full text:

http://hudclips.org/sub_nonhud/cgi/pdfforms/9548-e.pdf



Regards

Gerry

--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

8

Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Chad Fabry wrote:
I suspect that means when doing an inspection the inspector should make sure to stay out of the way of the qualified mold testing specialist.


For sure. Let the experts do it (and carry the liability). I have no intentions of getting into mold sampling.

Erol Kartal
9

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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To each his own!!


But you're missing out on good money - but again to each his own!!

I like the extra $40,000 to $50,000 a year I make on mold/fungi related lab tests. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

10

Originally Posted By: cmccann
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What Testing Cannot Answer


Mold testing procedures were not developed to determine whether a home is "safe" or "healthy" or "clean."

Presently no standards exist to determine "safe," "healthy" or "clean." Indoor mold testing procedures were developed to identify the locations where mold is growing or where it has grown?the mold "reservoir" locations or mold "amplification" sites.

Part of the problem is that no one knows what typical conditions are for homes, offices and schools?there is no "baseline" for comparison. Research is going on to answer this question. One day we will know, but we don't know now and it will be many years before we know the answer to this question.

The other part of the problem is that there is no "dose-response" curve for mold and humans. We just don't know how much exposure to which molds and for how long leads to problems. It's even more difficult when you realize that no two people are alike. Research is also going on to answer this question and one day we will also have the answer to this question. This question is far more difficult than the previous question and it will likely take much longer to answer. Common sense tells us that "too much" mold for "too long" is a problem for most people. Prudent avoidance is the best course of action at present.

Mold testing is not necessary to quantify "too much." Too much mold in a home is obvious. If you see mold and you smell mold, you have mold?and if you see it and you smell it you probably have too much of it.

Remember, mold needs water. No water, no mold. In fact it is more basic than that. No water problem, no mold problem. Find the water problem and you will find the mold.

If a home has mold and the water problem that led to mold is obvious, it is pointless to test for mold. The mold testing will not tell you anything that you don't already know you have to do, which is to clean up the mold and fix the water problem that led to the mold.

Mold testing is expensive. Any money spent on mold testing will not be available for cleaning up the mold and fixing the water problem that led to the mold. Also, the samples can take days or weeks to be analyzed?time that is lost that could better be spent cleaning up the mold and fixing the water problem. No recognized authoritative public agency recommends mold testing to guide the clean-up or to direct the correction of the water problem.

Mold testing?especially air testing?is often inaccurate.

Air samples at best give a "snapshot" of the air in one location at one time?air samples are not representative of air conditions over time unless many air samples are taken over a long period of time. Air sampling typically overestimates or underestimates the amount of mold in the air on average throughout the day.


by Nathan Yost, Joseph Lstiburek, and Terry Brennan

Found this article on the web when I was looking for information on mold training. ![nachi_sarcasm.gif](upload://6HQh6KbNiD73gqTNQInjrR2zeJw.gif)

--
NACHI MAB!

11

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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I believe when it comes to Mold, that there are three (3) scenarios;


1) Only have Mold tested by Licensed Professionals.

2) Have Inspectors take samples and have Labs Samples report what type of Mold or Fungi it is - toxic, or non-toxic.

3) Those that predicate no testing at all by HI's, nor anyone else!!

It is my humble opinion that the Mold scenario is soon to explode and that we HI's will be required to sample and investigate Mold. At least in licensed and/or Tree Hugger States. I know that there are a number of people who would argue with the belief. Right or wrong, that is mine, and I believe as I see the Mold issue grow larger and larger, eventuality is right around the corner. At that time, I will not tell you that I told you so..

Thank you for your time.

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

12

Originally Posted By: dplummer
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Responded to Chucks post in members section. Won’t repeat it again,but encourage those following this thread read it there. Thanks Doug

13

Originally Posted By: cmccann
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Thanks Doug, Those are not my words but published opinion. I myself don’t agree with all that was said in the article, but all aspects need to be addressed. I myself have found mold in attic space when the smell was not in the air. For that reason I’m considering sampling if I can find the right training and proper courses.

–
NACHI MAB!

14

Originally Posted By: dcampbell
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Ron your right I have went to mold testing classes and remediation class so that I was informed as mold and the $$$ is great from the testing. We do a lot of work that is mold only big $$$$.

15

Originally Posted By: Ryan Livengood
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I am an environmental scientist / certified ecologist with a degree in biology that has been doing Indoot air quality testing for a while now and I feel that this document could lead to more work for the industry. I however would like to point out that this should not be used for a quick buck. If you have very little idea what Aspergillius is or in what concentrations it may cause an imunocompromized individual to react then you should not be reporting the labs findings. The reason that something biological like mold is harder to report on, then say lead or radon which have recogonized limits, is because there are no set numbers that the government can set saying that someting is to high or to low. I don’t want to seem like I’m saying that you dont have the knowledge, it’s just that I spent 5 years studying Genetics and Microbiology and I still feel unconfortable reporting on it. Please be careful, because not only are you fulfilling a HUD requirement/suggestion, but you are commenting on something that could have the potential in extreme cases to adversly affect a human life.


I hope this helps and does not sound like some speach from a soap box.

16

Originally Posted By: dplummer
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Ryan; Doesn’t sound like your preaching to me. I appreciate a person with your qualifications sharing your view points with us. With out recognized limits by either the U.S or Canada, what guidelines do you personally work within? If you don’t mind sharing. Doug

17

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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Ryan,


So what are you saying - that HUD, EPA, California Dept. Of Health, et. all. don't know what they are talking about??

There is so much disparity amongst Environmentalists, Biologists, Ecologists, etc. that one does not know which way to turn, or who is correct.

I am by no means a expert in this industry, but if I find Mold in a structure, I feel it is my position to ask the client if they want this fungi analyzed, and if so I give it to a Lab for testing. Now, if their Scientists don't know what they are doing, or not correctly analyzing the fungi, that is beyond me, and I look at them as the experts. Perhaps, we should not rely upon these experts analysis and opinions, if not they, then whom??

But I do know this, while there are many so called experts purporting to have extreme knowledge about environmental issues, not one will put their mark on the paper. They want to charge large sums of money, but not be responsible for their analysis or actions. Why is that??

I feel what people such as my self are doing is a viable alternative to the scientific world, which do nothing more than scare the hell out of people. Mold has been here before time immemorial, and will continue to be with us. The knowledge of Mold is an everchanging thing, and is hasn't been since quite recently that Mold has become deadly thing that it has become. I wonder why??

Ryan, I believe you are giving us a contradiction in fact. You and others like you, are not giving us the facts, but only speculation, thus putting the fear of God into people with regard to fungi and Mold. Again why??

If I can't trust these Governmental agencies, then whom can I trust for the correct analysis and remediation??

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

18

Originally Posted By: Ryan Livengood
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Just to start out I am by no means an expert myself. I do consider myself well read and studied on the subject matter however. I feel that I will only talk on matters that I feel I have a firm understanding. The only reason that I qualify that I have a firm understanding on this is because I have had asthma and allergies for 25 years now, which is why I chose the degree in biology. I also wanted to say that I hope that this is not coming off sounding angry, by any means. I am sure you are very good at what you do. Moving on.


It's not the Lab I am worried about Ron. I believe completely in what results they come up with. I trust the lab I have been using for a long time. It's not their job to inturpret the results though. If it were they would be doing your job for you. They only come up with some number of CFU, or Colony forming units to report to you. It's your job to then tell the client if 7500 cfu of Penecillium is a bad thing or a good thing. Lets take you for example. Do you have any imunodifficencies? Lets assume that you do not. Then that amount of Penecillium is more then likely not a problem to you. However if the person has some form of immune problems, they are elderly, or they are a child, then they may be much more likely to be affected by that amount. The reason that the government has not pinned down numbers on mold is because everyone reacts differently to the same amounts of mold. However the Lethal dose of lead for you is the leathal dose of lead for me.

I would also like to point out that your use of the term fungi was a little ambiguous. Not all mold are fungi, but all fungi are mold. Fungi are actually in a class called Basidiospores, such as mushrooms. There are many different kinds of mold other then fungi. If you saw fungi in their home you may have seen some Portobello mushrooms on their counter. But I am sure that is not what you meant.

As a final note Ron, you had mentioned that me and people like me put the fear of god into people. I like to think that the only thing that puts the fear of god into people is ignorance Ron.

19

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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There you go Ryan,


If you can't scare them, then you call them ignorant. It amazes me how low you guys stoop not to have people infringe on your territory. Are you people afraid of a little competion??

If your not an expert, and I certainly am not, then who is?? You never did answer that question.

Have fun Ryan and play with your bugs and I will continue to help people and make good money at the same time.

BTW - not all Fungi are mushrooms!!

Take care and have fun.

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

20

Originally Posted By: loconnor
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Ryan


Thank you very much for your posts. They do have some good information in them.

I was considering doing mold samples myself if a customer asked. But my concern was what you addressed exactly. Without proper training, can I tell my customer that the results of the tests are safe limits for them? I don't feel I can.

Ron, I feel Ryan presents his case very well. I'm confused why you sound so animostic toward him. All he said was be careful if you decide to do the sample testing for a customer. What do you tell a customer after you receive the results back from a lab? Does the lab report say that the mold is safe for the occupant of the house? That there would be no allergic reactions, etc.?

I still do not know enough about mold and how it should be reported to take on that extra fee. Radon, however is another story.

--
Larry
Western Michigan NACHI Chapter
http://www.w-michigan-nachi.org

"We confide in our strength
without boasting of it.
We respect that of others
without fearing it"
Thomas Jefferson