Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rcooke wrote:
[ Wrong ! Electricity is strange. Unless you have taken a lot of courses and done much studying .
Well I have taken a lot of courses and done much studying.
30 years with IBM, the last 5 as the safety coridinator for a branch office. I also completed IAEI, ICBO and SBCCI certification as an electrical inspector along with Florida licensing exams. Since then I have 8 years of CEUs.
A bad pump is still a bad pump. A bad fridge is still a bad fridge. You can fix water damage and replace spoiled food but death is forever.
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
rcooke wrote:
[ Wrong ! Electricity is strange. Unless you have taken a lot of courses and done much studying .
Well I have taken a lot of courses and done much studying.
30 years with IBM, the last 5 as the safety coridinator for a branch office. I also completed IAEI, ICBO and SBCCI certification as an electrical inspector along with Florida licensing exams. Since then I have 8 years of CEUs.
A bad pump is still a bad pump. A bad fridge is still a bad fridge. You can fix water damage and replace spoiled food but death is forever.
==============================================
Are you saying a GFCI gives better protection then a three wire properly grounded pump???.
Roy Cooke sr.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
No I am saying a GFCI adds additional protection to a properly wired and grounded pump.
BTW I guess this is one course I don't have to take;
Greg Fretwell's Results
Below is your online score. You have completed NACHI's Online Inspector Examination in 22 minutes.
Your Online Score
You answered 112 questions correctly for a total of 453 points.
You answered 8 incorrectly for a total of 30 points.
Your final score was 94 (a passing score)
Your Unique Session Code:
Keep this code for your records: EXPR-0000-0034-51
I would have done better if I had actually ever seen a boiler or oil burner 
.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rcooke wrote:
You talk about grabbing the freezer handle . How about a three wire cord if it is properly grounded then why would you need a GFCI.
If you knew electricity as well as you are saying, you would not be asking that question.
You might as well ask "Well, why do we need redundant grounds on anything?'
No, the GFCI is not a "redundant ground", but electricity will take whatever path to ground IT CAN, not necessarily the shorted or easiest, in fact, it will often times take multiple paths.
Actually, electricity is not trying 'to get to ground', it is trying to get to ... I'll pause and allow you to answer that before I give the answer.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg & Jerry
Thank you for some back up. 
1) GFCIs trip only for one reason, a difference of current in the circuit conductors.
2)The only way to have a difference of current in the circuit conductors is the flow of electricity to back to the source through the wrong path.
That path may be the earth, plumbing pipes, a human etc.
3)When a single appliance trips a GFCI it is time to blame the appliance not the GFCI.
Yes the appliance may 'work' when plugged into a normal outlet. In no way does that mean it is safe. As Greg mentioned it only means the grounding conductor is doing it's job, if the grounding conductor breaks the appliance is now dangerous.
Roy regardless of how many years you or your family have been in the electrical trade you seem stuck in the old ways of doing things.
The code changes, the products change and if you are unwilling to accept that it is bad for your customers.
I must take CEUs each 3 year code cycle to keep my license, I also read a lot, take course my employer offers. I also communicate with engineers, code making members etc.
Quote:
Where in the code does it say I must use a GFCI on sump pumps.
It doesn't say that but....If that sump pump is located in a crawl space it must be a GFCI protected.
Quote:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through ( shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(4)Crawl spaces ? at or below grade level
There are no exceptions for GFCI protection in crawl spaces.
Explain why pool pumps run fine on GFCIs but sump pumps would not?
They both pump water, often the pool pumps are of larger HP.
If you tell me "Because the sump pump is submerged" all I will say is then you are admitting the pump has leakage current that is potentially fatal.
Quote:
The way you talk all homes should have GFCI protecting all circuits or am I reading it wrong
And the problem with that would be?
It is coming, AFCI breakers include GFCI protection and eventually I firmly believe you will see AFCIs required for all dwelling unit 15 and 20 amp branch circuits.
As a matter of fact in Europe the main breaker in a house is a GFCI breaker, admittedly it does have a higher trip level than our class A GFCIs.
The higher trip level is need as the single GFCI main 'sees' the leakage current of all the appliances and the capacitance coupling of all the wiring.
Bob
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: rcooke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Question to you. Do you have GFCI’s for all circuits in your garage and your work shop and your basement. How about the attic these are all places you might use an drill or a saw. I am not saying GFCI’s are not great protection just that what I have seen . I Have them myself the newest available not the older stile, in my garage out side and my work shop, but not my sump pump refrigerator or TV or my central vacuum. All Potential sources of a shock. Electricity want,s to get back to source of supply. I wonder how many have generators or power packs that can give a 120 volts from your car. They also can give you a lethal shock.It matters not how much protection we put into the system some one some where is not doing it properly. With what I see here you expect Home inspectors to know as much about electricity as electricians. there is no way we can all know the codes of all trades. This is the reason we do not do code inspections. You say I am stuck in the old ways of doing things . Please give me an example. Is you home up to date in all codes and do you know all codes and do you know codes for all areas I would be very surprised if the answer is yes.
You take courses regularly. Question can you explain to me what is meant when Wattless power and how do you fix it.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rcooke wrote:
Question to you. Do you have GFCI's for all circuits in your garage and your work shop and your basement. How about the attic these are all places you might use an drill or a saw. Is you home up to date in all codes and do you know all codes and do you know codes for all areas I would be very surprised if the answer is yes.
You take courses regularly. Question can you explain to me what is meant when Wattless power and how do you fix it.
Roy Cooke sr Brighton .
The short answer is YES. I don't have a basement, those are called indoor pools here but I do have GFCI protection on all outlets, including lighting, in my garage, shop, outdoor bar, pool, spa and about half of the wall outlets in the living room/dining room area. That includes the receptacle outlets in my computer room which is also an electronics shop.
My house is compliant with the 1999 code. The thing that keeps it from being 2002 compliant is I haven't put an AFCI on the overhead lighting in the bedrooms. The receptacles are covered.
I think Bob and I are fairly conversant with the NEC and that is the code in question.
I am not sure what you mean by "wattless power" but I will guess you are talking about inductive loads and high power factors. Is "capacitor" the word you are looking for?
Originally Posted By: Kenneth Hartman This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
this is per the 2005 NEC GFCI required (6) Kitchens ? where the receptacles are installed to serve he countertop surfaces. Now you have to go to a different article to find out what there considering a coutertop surface 210-52.c.5 states (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall
be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible
by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages,