Kansas Draft by Karei, finally got it done

General Inspection Topics Legislation, Licensing, Ethics & Legal Issues
21

Anyway somewhere during the meeting of the KAREI group 2 weeks ago, Jeff Barnes pointed out that although its possible we could keep arguing with the realtors, etc that this was hopeless and the outcome inevitable SO the KAREI BOD has decided to do something to help all Kansas Inspectors and write this Bill and try to get it pushed through with the realtors assistance or support.

If I remember correctly Jeff mentioned it had gotten tiring for him - running from Wichita to the state capitol (Topeka) on 48 hours notice to attend a hearing, so this was probably best for us (on the map it looks like a 3-4 hour drive for him). I’m still wondering **WHY **those of us in Kansas City (60 miles away) weren’t told about those hearings so we could save him the time by US running out there. Jeff is a well spoken man, but there are several of us in KC with many years more experience dealing with these type of issues than Jeff has, AND we’re only an hour away.

Anyway I think thats why a bunch of the GUYS around the state (NACHI, ASHI, NAHI and Unaffiliated) have formed another state group called KARCI (Kansas Association of Residential & Commercial Inspectors). They’re fresh and not tired out and from what I’m told have every intention of putting up a fight to keep outside influences from “Steering our Boat”.

I think they’ve got some good ideas and have decided to join them.

22

Jeff’s email would indicate that his desire to push through the ASHI agenda required him to keep things “close to the chest” which would require him to do much of the leg work. Secret, clandestine meetings are difficult to coordinate with a larger group of people.

For such a person as this to call Paul a liar…I just hope that you guys in Kansas remember what he tried to do to you - legislatively - before you elect him to serve in any other representative capacity.

23

Mr. Barnes,

Why are you so scared of realtors? Why do you think we need them? Why do you think we should let them (realtors) dictate to us how we do business? Why do you think that legislation/regulation of HI is needed? Why do you not have true data to back up your statements? Why is it that your membership numbers are down from a year ago? Why do you have such a disdain of NACHI Members?

I look forward to your responses.

24

Does anyone have the survey that was crafted by the Kansas Association of Realtors (Mr. Bell in conjuction with Barnes) that was sent out to legislative candidates, prior to the last election? It spoke volumes.

Wish I could find my copy. Oh well…Someone help us out here.

25

How’s this for starters. Mr Bell’s email

And for more famous words attributed to Mr. Bell

The last sentence speaks volumes. “…help show the legislature that there is a need for regulation of the home inspection industry.”

I guess you can say that the survey that KARCI sent out was nothing more than an effort to gather anecdotal evidence from inspectors that can help show the legislature that there is a need for consumer protection and further regulation of the construction and real estate community, thats all.

Paul

26

Jim, your post #19 is killing me :smiley: .

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…

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John is this the one you are talking about?

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What an interesting read the postings have been. Jbowman posted an email which was sent to J.R. Burk back in June. The proposed language has changed many times since then and currently has NO language addressing any association or group or specific test. The language we have been working on has been a work in progress for three years and is currently 11 pages long and includes many additions and revisions from suggestions received at our meeting few weeks ago. Some of the revision language even came from one of the posters on this topic.

Mr. Bells E-mail which was sent to realtors requesting information regarding problems in our industry was poorly written, poorly persentred and showed a lack of judgment. He has been admonished by inspectors, his superiors and even realtors. He has publicly apologized for the E-mail. Jrbowman even links this e-mail to me. What? How did I get involved with this? I was as outraged as everyone else and personally addressed by concerns with him directly.

Pcarter has a whole plethora of questions from why am I scared of realtors to why I have a disdain for NACHI. First I have no fear of realtors, but I am a realest and understand that 250 inspectors with mussels flexed can not keep fighting off 10,000 plus realtors, and the trial lawyers, and home builders association, and legislators. Were not just fighting realtors, in the past we have been fighting the whole real estate industry. Like it or not, these groups are consipiring against us and we can’t keep playing defense without getting scored on. sometimes playing offense is the best defense. As for the "disdain of NACHI members, I have no issues with NACHI or the origination. I truly believe NACHI has the best marketing maching out there. My only concern is with the unproctored testing which allows anyone to take the test for the future inspector. If we are to insure our industry is truly considered professional and inspectors compentant professionals we must insure a minimum standard is met. This requires establishing the standard which can be as simple as passing a proctored exam.

Several posters made comments indicating I am pushing the ASHI agenda and we are being secretive, deceitful and treacherous. One poster even commented that people are not comming to the meetings because we are pushing the legislation. Let me clear this up. First, I don’t understand how anyone can think we have been secretive because for three years we have been having public meetings and I have personally sent invitations to over 250 inspectors, including ALL NACHI members from a mailing list which came from NACHI, to ask THEIR openion as to how they want the KAREI leadership to proceed. This year is the only time we did not send out written invitations, but we did send out nearly 120 E-mail invitations to our members and we know these invitations were copied and sent to non members because we invited members to pass the invitation on. We have NEVER excluded anyone, member or not, from coming to any of our meetings. The KAREI leadership has told the membership over and over we will push the agenda you tell us you want us to push, so to say you didn’t show up to protest legislation is just silly. What you did is open the door for those who did show up and wanted legislation. Whats the old addage, if you didn’t vote you can’t complain. As for pushing the ASHI agenda, special care has been taken to eliminate all links to any association, anyone who was at the meeting a few weeks ago or has read the posted draft would have seen this.

dwiley writes, among other things, “don’t ever use the tired line that the legislation is designed to protect the consumer. That line of crap is just that, crap”. Interesting comment. Apparently dwiley has forgotton that the inspection industry IS a consummer protection industry, Bottom line! It is not a quick way to make money industry, it is not an easy part time job to put extra cash in my pocket industry, and its not a part time job with full time pay industry, as we read in the magazine adds. The purpose of the inspection is to provide guidance and counsel for the consumer. Professional inspectors understand this and take great pride in providing quality service, continually up dating their job knowledge and yes protecting the consumer. Making a good living is a sign of doing the job right. Putting on a flash light and carring a ladder doesn’t make you an inspector anymore than standing in the garage makes you a Chevy.

Out of all of the posters on this topic only one has actually talked to me about this issue and none of them actually knows me so the jabs and personal barbs regarding my character and motives are out of line. We have never had anything to hide and have always been willing to discuss any toppic. We understand that on some toppics individuals will agree to disagree and thats OK. Constructave discussions are what makes the wold turn and working together to come to a productive conclusion does not mean that you have crawled into bed with those with opposing views or agendas. The membership of KAREI has voted to pursue acceptable language for legislation help keep others off of our backs so thats what we will now work on. For those who chose not to participate in the discussions or vote, I’m sorry, but you can still contact me with your thoughs and ideas. You can call me directly at 316-393-0735. I am a working inspector and do over 500 inspection each year, so if you don’t reach me, please leave a message and I will return your call.

30

I’ve looked at these posts and the attachments. To be honest about this its just like contractors licensing. Its always promoted to protect the public when in actuality it does little if anything to raise the bar or provide real protection to the public. Several of the heaviest licensed states have more lawsuits and poorer consumer protection than all others combined.

I’m looking at doing inspections so I’ve watched several states info.

From what I read on the Kansas situation here and in other sites, the Kansas real estate community has been trying for years to be real control freaks. All information looks like every time they have a problen with inspectors (real or perceived) - instead of trying to educate their own people, they try to change the way you inspectors do business. You’re stupid if you let them.

I can’t imagine why the better inspectors have not done things to get their attention quick and hard - like, have you gone to the media; set up sting operations on them like we’ve seen on national TV in other states; set up large volume mailings to legislators, newspapers, TV, etc.

It looks like theres a bunch of inspectors that aren’t raising hell where it counts. Always understand one thing - anybody in the transaction that does not get paid unless the deal closes, has a vested interest in pushing the deal forward to close - no matter what - otherwise no paycheck for them.

As inspectors YOU (not the real estate agents) are the public protectors, the check and balance system in an otherwise one-sided transaction. YOU (not the real estate agents) or sellers with poor memories are the public protectors. I see you have problems like all other businesses - BUT - your significant complaint ratio is miniscule compared to other industries.

There is a court system for that type of issue let them handle it - don’t bow down before the commissioned realty groups just because you think you can’t fight. You can fight - think in our highly litigatious society what it would be like if for 2 weeks the Kansas home inspectors went on strike.

I’ve owned several houses in different states. I’ve been around construction my whole life. I’ve seen some really great caring agents - but those were in the great minority. Most I’ve met were BORDERLINE SALES PEOPLE.

Just for conversation, over the past week I have gone to several of the National Association web sites (NACHI, ASHI, NAHI and various search engines) and cruised their features for finding inspectors. Once there I’d pull up different web sites and look at the inspectors backgrounds.

Although many real estate agents seem to look at you as glorified handymen, you folks are for the most part highly trained at what you do. In just the limited spot checks I’ve done it seems like over 60% of you have college degrees - some advanced degrees; over 63% of the sites that I went on the inspector had attended formal home inspection or related training; over 45% of the inspectors came from skilled trades backgrounds like electricians, plumbers, contractors, home builders, etc. Bottom line - you are not the good old boys - why do you let them treat you like you are???

In many states they’ll find a few poor home inspections and then try to fuel a widespread run on licensing. In most states licensing of inspectors has been driven because of real estate agents or builders wanting to shift liability off themselves and sellers with bad memories OR attorneys wanting to get a new cash cow to milk **OR **one group of inspectors trying to control the business.

31

I think the gauntlet has been thrown, folks.

Perhaps those of us who are independent of real estate agent referrals can be the first to fire the artillary. A few sting operations…take a few agents down with lots and lots of media exposure…until they all back off. It sounds pretty simple, to me.

32

Mr. Barnes,

Your past actions and expressed hatred for anything NACHI leads many to believe that you are a coniving underhanded liar.

Admittedly, I am one of those. But, I’m a prudent man and perhaps I have misunderstood you. So to that end, I’ll give you a chance to sway my thoughts. I’ll start out with some easy questions. And then with your cooperation we can move on to the nuts and bolts of the proposed bill. By the way, your little lecture above would have been more convincing if you had included a link or pdf to your new 11 page proposed bill.

  1. Please explain to everyone exactly what Psychometric Testing is… You wrote it in the bill, so obviously you must be quite familiar with its use and definition.

  2. Are there any other state qualification examinations that are Psychometric? If so please name them…

  3. Besides the NHIE name one other psychometric valid examination being utilized by any state…

  4. Exactly when and why did the crux of your language and feelings change from your June 30th 2006 email.

33

Although I am incorrectly identified by mr. barnes as dwiley, I can respond anyway.

Obviously you have never read any of my previous posts about licensing over the years to know that I have debugged the “consumer protection” argument for licensing many times.

If you consider the number of inspections performed each year vs. the number of “bad inspections” I would think that the complaint level is relatively low, perhaps below that of contractors, realtors and other service industries.

I have asked for many times, yet only once received any relevant data for home inspection complaints, and that came from your state. I believe the data was from 2004, and 4 complaints were filed about home inspectors, while 400 were filed for Realtors. My recollection of that data may be a bit fuzzy, but Paul Sabados has the same data and can back it up. If you consider that almost every home that was sold by a Realtor had and inspection too, it would seem that first Kansas needs to tighten legislation on it’s Realtors.

Show me the statistics that bear out that we have more than our share unscrupulous inspectors performing inspections, that we have an unnatural number of unethical businessmen, that we truly have too many uneducated inspectors, and the per capita of buyers actually harmed by home inspectors, and perhaps my mindset will change. The problem is that data does not exist, it is a feeling in the minds of those who want the government to be involved in the regulation of our industry.

And remember, I state all of this as a licensed inspector. We in my county had to pass the NHIE, among other requirements. Whoopee. Licensing has not raised the bar of the inspector in this area. We still get newbies with strange questions, we still have inspectors that charge $150 for an inspection, we still have inspectors who don’t write up FPE panels or even pull covers, we still have inspectors who don’t enter attics or crawl spaces. In short, it hasn’t done anything to protect the consumer, or get guys out of the business who many would call less than adequate inspectors. Oh, and we still have Realtors who want the guys who don’t do any of those things. Charge little, find little.

Yep, we’re in the consumer protection business, it doesn’t mean that we need the government involved in protecting us from ourselves.

34

Mr. Barnes, thank you for responding, but unfortunately I have been in your presence (also by phone) when you spoke of NACHI and I have not seen or heard you speak any differently of your disdain for NACHI and what NACHI represents when you I have talked or been in the same room. Unfortunately, I could not attend this years KAREI meeting for health concerns but did hear from other KAREI members (ASHI, NAHI, NACHI members) what was discussed and the attitude you still have regarding inspectors from NACHI and Independents. Not you maybe, but one of your BOD members is talking in the KC area about how the KC HI’s are no better than used car salesman according to the realtors and this person has been talking that only ASHI can inspect a home. It all adds up the same, KAREI promotes ASHI and only ASHI by any means it feels it can get by with. They tolerate NAHI inspectors but thats it only, they tolerate. This is a personal opinion and is shared by others, but I will let them speak for themselves.
I try to be as respectful as I can be with other’s opinions as I don’t believe in name calling, you have the right to your opinion and I have the right to mine, but when I see and hear deceit and hypocrisy from an state organization BOD
member it makes me question the true intent of that organization and of the individuals intgrity that serve on that organizations BOD.
As a Kansas Home Inspector, I DO NOT WANT THE STATE GOVERNMENT INVOLVED with my business, period, they will only mess it up no matter how you present it and I DO NOT WANT REALTORS OR HOME BUILDERS OR CONTRACTORS telling me what I can and cannot do, and I don’t want them having any say in how we should or should not do to protect our clients from them.
Mr. Barnes again, thank you for reponding to our questions and I do have to honestly admit that I admire you for your courage to post here and hopefully you will continue to do so. I wish you and your family a Happy Thanksgiving.

35

It is understood and held in many circles that NAHI exists soley as a means for ASHI candidates to have an association of which they can be full members until hitting the “big 250”. Tolerance, on their part, would be prudent.:wink:

36

That lack of judgement is still to this day having an effect. Agents are still being told to document ANY kind of problem that they encounter in the transaction in regards to the home inspection process. The jury has been told to dis-regard the comments made by Mr. Bell in public, but on the backside, hey thats not a bad idea, so its still in play, unofficially.

So, we live in a pack of wild dogs and we’re supposed to assume that WE (inpsectors) are the weakest in the pack. So the presummed Alpha dogs tell us to roll over and play servant and we do.

Let’s see now, we have to fight 10,000 plus agents. Over half that number are part timers with more than likely 2-3 yrs of experience and 30 Hrs. of required training. Most of those agents sell one to maybe two homes per year and maybe have been exposed to 4-5 inspections. They list one less than adequate dwelling, don’t get the proper disclosure info, the sale goes south and the agent is throwing a hissie fit because the inspector blew the deal. Who’s at fault? Even the NAR leaders are saying that many of the agents are weak, need additional training and the industry is glutted.

Why are the contractors wanting to license inspectors? Could it be that the inspectors are finding items wrong in the so called quality blue ribbon home’s that they build? Naw! Our contractors do a wonderful job and follow codes to the letter. Really? If then why is KAR telling the builders that they support them in their efforts to prevent a statewide code enforcement program?

The Trial Attorney’s, now thats a trip. Of course they would like to have that liability limit removed. If they were such a powerful group, that law would have been changed last year. Why wasn’t it? Was it because if they take our rights away, other industries would have been affected also?
So what you’re proposing is that for a slight additional upcharge you want to give away our base protection and inserted an arbitational number of $15,000.00. Where in the world did you arrive at that number? Let me guess, the attorneys said that would be a nice figure. Go ahead and ding away. The amount of frivilous lawsuits will go off the charts. Something stupid like that will have an effect on E&O insurance and the ability to maintain that, but lets call that fiscal responsibility.

All three of these groups can be debunked. They have nothing. So the dog pack is jockeying for position and all three are showing their teeth to us, telling us to roll over and submit. Yeah, lets just do that, in the name of Comsumer Protection and do things their way. While we’re at it, lets have a realtor agent on our board telling us exactly how to do it. Why stop there, why don’t you add a builder, a trial attorney and a code inspector and complete the circle.

So your idea of playing offense is to give into the pack. Sounds more like giving up. Uh-oh here comes the agent, time to roll over and be a good puppy.:roll: Oh, I’m sorry I don’t roll over.

BTW. Mr. Wiley stated his position more than once over the last 4 yrs. and thats a matter of record.

Paul