Lets get all the bad things in the open

Archive Public Archive
1

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DCP_3182bbb.JPG ]


What's wrong here folks?

2

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Pretty colors!


Jay...when you post something like this could you give us a little info on what the panel is (service equipment, other, etc) and what type of home it's located in?

Anyway...
3 double tapped breakers.
Some of the wires look a little the worse for wear...I did notice the red from the tandem breaker appears damaged

![](upload://gY5YjdIuTNoRiigAnnNBreCPzJC.jpeg)

Nasty little flammable "price tags".

If this is NOT the service equipment, and all the metallic conduit is "continuous" and used for grounding, I'm not sure what is else is wrong.

What am I missing?

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

3

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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  1. Flamabale material

  2. Double taps

  3. Continous EMC?

  4. If service panel then missing neutral/ground bonding

  5. missing insulation from orange conductor


also;
6) I count 5 - 220V circuits. At least 1 is a 110/220
__I count 22 - 110V circuits.
__I count 16 - neturals
__So either there are some missing neutals or missing breaker ties for 3 more 220V circuits

--
.


Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
Place your Award Nominations
here !

4

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I am not sure I see anything, other than the damaged wire. icon_confused.gif


This is not a service panel, there is no main breaker.

This is a Square D panel the breakers are listed for two wires.

EMT is an acceptable grounding conductor.

I have never been called for using the paper tags, most inspectors like having the labels.

I did not bother to count but if there is a 'shortage' of neutrals it is most likely because some of the circuits are sharing neutrals (Multiwire branch circuits) and handle ties are not required for that unless both circuits run to one 'yoke' or device.

Nothing wrong with the colors, kind of pretty.

If you look carefully at the bottom right hand corner you will see a bent piece of dirty copper, that would have been the bonding strap if it had been needed.

Can you tell us what you think is wrong?

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

5

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Bob,


Don't the breakers that are listed for two wires have the wires going in an indentation on either side of the screw?

--
.


Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
Place your Award Nominations
here !

6

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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bbadger wrote:

This is not a service panel, there is no main breaker.

This is a Square D panel the breakers are listed for two wires.


We hope it's not the service panel! My guess would be a condo...but that's why I asked for more info.

Might be a Square-D panel but the breakers may not be(?). Don't most Square-D brand breakers have some visible labeling? These look suspiciously like off-brand breakers to me...which don't have the 2-wire capability. I'll remove my objection to the double-taps if they are the two-conductor rated breakers, but I can't see the terminals clearly enough in the photo.

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com
7

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Quote:
Check out this one from 1974


and

Bob wrote
Quote:
This is a Square D panel the breakers are listed for two wires.


Now my question is did Square D make this type of breakers in 1974 ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)
8

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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QO breakers are certainly older than 1974 and I doubt there was anyone “knocking them off” in those days. I still have some mid 70 QOs left over from a big remodel I did in 75 (I bought several boxes). They don’t have any visible SqD logo when installed. It is on the side with the interupting rating. “SWD” (switching duty rated) is on the other side. The label indicating 1 or 2 conductors is in the wiring cavity in tiny font


BTW it says


1 or 2 AL/CU #8-14 if you left your microscope in your other suit. I do have a halfway decent picture of it.


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/Q/QU_sticker.jpg ]

9

Originally Posted By: rmoore
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Here’s an old 15-amp breaker I took out of my own Square-D panel a few years back (actual age unknown).


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/o/offbrand001.jpg ]
The only Square-D marking is a rather crude and "skinny" version of the Square-D logo. I don't know if this is an actual Square-D or a knock-off...but either way...

Here's the terminal...

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/o/offbrand002.jpg ]
Obviously not designed for 2 conductors.

Here's the side of a "real" 2-conductor Square-D breaker...

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/s/squarednachi1.jpg ]
Notice the heavier, trademarked, Square-D logo.

Here is the 2-conductor terminal...

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/s/squarednachi2.jpg ]
Besides the grooved provision for two conductors, the screw-head is also quite large.

Tough to tell for certain from Jay's photo, but his screw heads look more like the single-conductor screw.

One final thing...you might notice that, according to the side markings, the breaker is only CU/AL rated when using one conductor. CU only for two.

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

10

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Guys, it is a Square D Panel. The service drop to the mast is in deplorable condition. The insulation around those wires are cracked and wire is exposed. The service mast is only 8 feet above the ground.


A truly shocking experience.

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DCP_3163bb.JPG ]

11

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jschwartz1 wrote:
It is the MAIN PANEL.


Jay are you saying there is no 'Service Disconect' at some other location, like at the meter?

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
12

Originally Posted By: jschwartz1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Bob,


I dint say it right. There is a disconnect at the meter

13

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Then the bonding should be done at that disconnect and this is a ‘sub panel’.


Neutrals and grounds are separate as they should be. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

14

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Richard I see several differences between your new breaker and my Watergate era one.


Yours says 2 wires are only supported in copper #10-#14


mine says AL/CU #8-#14


Yours is 75c rated, mine has no 75c rating


Yours has commie metric markings


There is nothing about connections molded on the side, only the label.


I'm sure mine are real SqD, they were sealed in the "10 pack" box and bought from a supply house.

BTW I have never seen a 15 or 20a QO with the set screw terminal like the first one you showed. Is that a single pole 30?

15

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Greg Fretwell wrote:

BTW I have never seen a 15 or 20a QO with the set screw terminal like the first one you showed. Is that a single pole 30?


Hi Greg,

No...it's a full size 15-amp, the only one I kept. I pulled a bunch of these (15 and 20s) out of an older Square-D QO panel when I replaced it about 4 years ago. I do not know the age of that original panel, but I would guess 20+ years (tossed now). All my new QO breakers (some from the old panel) have the indicator window, front labeling, and the 15 and 20 single poles now all have the 2-wire capability (unused ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) ).

I don't know if the one I pictured is a generic knock-off or just an old Square-D with a single-wire set screw. As I indicated earlier, I'm suspicious of the un-trademarked logo. Unfortunately, the paper label by the screw is totally illegible.

Anyway...from personal experience, I know that there are single-pole 15 and 20 amp breakers out there that look like Square-D, but are not designed for 2 wires. I don't see that many double-tapped breakers in Square-D panels but, when I do, I check the terminal type rather than just relying on the panel or breaker brand. The difference is very obvious from the right angle.

In Jay's photo, the double tap on the left does appear to be entering a central hole rather than either side of a grooved pressure plate...but who knows without actually seeing it from the side?



--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com
16

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Next time I see Jim Pauley I will ask him about that breaker. He may be down here for our 2005 code seminars.