Originally Posted By: rray
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Also not something that we call out when the water heater is located in the garage.
Also not something that we call out when the water heater is located in the garage.
Originally Posted By: janderson
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sustain combustion. However, the same amount of dryer lint does sustain combustion.
I have seen cases where dryer lint particles, entrained with enough oxygen, came into contact with an ignition source and an explosion occurred with rapid combustion.
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Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial
Jeremiah
Originally Posted By: dedwards
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A supercharged water heater with a “blower” on it. I wish you had taken a picture of the individual that thought up this contraption. What kind of logic came up with this? Reminds of one I found in a walk out basement. The guy thought it would be a good idea to put the AC drain pipe in an open hub on a sewer drain. Every time the AC came on the circulating fan would draw sewer gases into the home via the ductwork. The couple kept looking at the other one like they were the one cutting the cheese.
Originally Posted By: pbennett1
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The ignition source for the dryer (gas or electric) must also be raised about the floor. OPPS
Originally Posted By: Kyle Kubs
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That one absolutely TAKES THE CAKE…
"hmmm only one vent & several appliances... I think I'll just daisy chain them all together! Yah, That'll do it..."
Be afraid, be very afraid...
Kyle Kubs
Benchmark Home Inspection Services
North NJ 
--
Those that say it cannot be done should stop interupting those of us who are hard at work, doing it...
Originally Posted By: whandley
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Hey Russel; Is the lower earthquake bracing strap reversed on that unit? It looks as though the right side anchor strap is wrapped around the unit from the back and attached to the wall off left side of same. If thats the case, the unit can move laterally during a seismic event. Is there a continuous fire wall behind the support platform? I normally find them drywall covered, as opposed to plywood. You’ve probably seen it also, where the fresh water plumbing manifold is located in a open framed wall area behind the fire wall rated support platform. Looks like that platform has been altered on more than one occasion. There’s a small void at base of the platform, maybe with a mirror the interior wall could be viewed. Its odd too, that the interior/exterior fire box covers are lying on the slab next to the dryer. Did you have to many margarita’s and stage this?
Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Actually, preheating combustion air promotes complete combustion and increases combustion and thermal efficiency. Besides, the lint filter takes all of the lint out!
This guy was definitely a FORMER engineering school student that got at least as far as thermodynamics.
I think he needs to add a Lungstrom air preheater between the two appliances.
tg
Originally Posted By: dguizzetti
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CO2 + H20=H2CO3 (carbonic ACID) probably keeps the rust accumulation down as it eats away at the WH.
Originally Posted By: rray
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| pbennett1 wrote: |
| The ignition source for the dryer (gas or electric) must also be raised about the floor. OPPS |
Actually, it does not.
Logic would dictate that it does, but does anyone know the reason why it is not required for dryers? I do.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: rray
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| whandley wrote: |
| Hey Russel; Is the lower earthquake bracing strap reversed on that unit? It looks as though the right side anchor strap is wrapped around the unit from the back and attached to the wall off left side of same. If thats the case, the unit can move laterally during a seismic event. Is there a continuous fire wall behind the support platform? I normally find them drywall covered, as opposed to plywood. You've probably seen it also, where the fresh water plumbing manifold is located in a open framed wall area behind the fire wall rated support platform. Looks like that platform has been altered on more than one occasion. There's a small void at base of the platform, maybe with a mirror the interior wall could be viewed. Its odd too, that the interior/exterior fire box covers are lying on the slab next to the dryer. Did you have to many margarita's and stage this?  |
Hey, Will.
The picture only illustrates a very small number of problems that were detected that day.
I noted the "nonstandard installation" and the fact that all the pieces were conveniently "stored" nearby to go back to a standard installation. You'll notice that the dryer connector looks rather new. Considering everything else that looked rather new at the house, I think the owner did everything he could think of (and not well, at that) to "prepare" his home for listing and/or the home inspection. I'm sure with the size of the dryer that he always had moist air and/or lint flying through the garage, so, for listing/inspection, he hooked it up to the only place that was available. Perhaps if the home inspector missed the non-standard installation, then he had accomplished his goal and could put everything back right. I don't know. That was one of the stranger houses I've inspected.
When the seller meets you at the door, and the first thing out of his mouth is not "Hello" but "I have made a lot of improvements and I've done them all myself to code," well call for backup because the inspection will run overtime.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: pbennett1
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M1307.3 Elevation of ignition source. Appliances having an
ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition
is not less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor in garages.
For the purpose of this section, rooms or spaces that are not part
of the living space of a dwelling unit and that communicate
with a private garage through openings shall be considered to
be part of the garage.
M1307.3.1 Protection from impact. Appliances located in
a garage or carport shall be protected from impact by
automobiles.
Originally Posted By: hgordon
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NO FREAKIN WAY DUDE!!!
RR...damm you find 'em!!
--
Harvey Gordon
SE Florida NACHI Chapter - President
hgordon@fl.nachi.org
Originally Posted By: rray
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Hey, Peter.
Now go read the definition of appliances.
I believe you'll find that there is a difference between "personal appliances" (i.e., appliances that typically are removed from a residence in a real estate sale) and "appliances" for code terminology purposes. And therein lies the reason why dryers are not required by code to be elevated. They are considered personal appliances. It's similar to taking a space heater out into the garage on a cold night to do some late night work (which I do quite often). Although logic would dictate that I raise the space heater 18 inches, it is not required by code because it's a personal appliance. Same thing with the dryer. That's why you don't find dryers elevated, regardless of who is installing them--homeowner or appliance installation professionals.
You'll find codes that concern the flue installation that the dryer is connected to, but nothing about how to connect the dryer to the flue other than dryer manufacturer recommendations.
You'll find codes that concern the electric outlet that the dryer is plugged into, but nothing about how to connect the dryer to the outlet other than dryer manufacturer recommendations.
A lot of it is logical, one hopes, but a lot is not. For example, there is no code that says that a dryer plugged into an extension cord plugged into an extension cord plugged into an extension cord plugged into the outlet is wrong. You will find extension cord manufactures who say it is wrong, and you'll find dryer manufacturers who say not to do that, but there is no code concerning it.
In other words, the codes typically apply to things that are permanent or considered permanent as per the definitions included with the code. Personal appliances are not considered permanent, which is why they are not affected.
One could also take the car as an example. Car exhausts used to be a major cause of fires many years ago, and the occasional defective exhaust system/catalytic converter will still allow sparks to come out of the exhaust tail pipe. The tailpipe on my Nissan Altima is only 9? inches above the garage floor. My car is an appliance that moves me around from place to place, but codes won't affect how I park my car in my garage.
However, if your local AHJ wants the dryer raised, that would be a telling factor. However, in all the states where I have ever worked and needed a local AHJ to approve something, I have never seen oen come out to check on personal appliance installation. That would be really strange. They have much more important things to do (and to miss) with just the regular stuff like water heaters and furnaces. Can you imagine the expense and inconvenience involved for the homeowner if the local AHJ had to come out every time a washer or dryer was installed? Installation professonal: "Okay, Mrs. homeowner, your new washer and dryer are installed. However, the inspector won't be able to get here until May 17, so you can't use it until he inspects it." And I can see him now when I call him at 3:00 in the morning to come look at my space heater installation.  By the time he got here, I'd be done and the space heater would be back in its closet.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: pbennett1
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Russell, thanks for shedding some light. but, under Part II ? Definitions
CHAPTER 2 , DEFINITIONS, SECTION R201, there is no definition of personal appliance.
Originally Posted By: rray
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What does it say for just appliances? That definition will probably exclude personal appliances simply by its definition.
–
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: rray
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| Quote: |
|
APPLIANCE. A device or apparatus that is manufactured and designed to utilize energy and for which this code provides specific requirements." |
The second "and" there is very, very important.
I don't believe you'll find that the "code provides specific requirements" for dryers because dryers are personal appliances for which the code does not provide specific requirements.
(That was a fun sentence to write.  )
So by its definition, personal appliances (or any other appliances for which the code does not provide specific requirements) are excluded.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: rray
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Darn. I’m starting to sound like Jerry Peck.
I must need a little nappy.
Catch everyone later today.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: pbennett1
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"I don’t believe you’ll find that the “code provides specific requirements” for dryers because dryers are personal appliances for which the code does not provide specific requirements. "
SHOW ME !!! BECAUSE
The code does refer to dryers
SECTION M1307
APPLIANCE INSTALLATION
M1307.1 General. Installation of appliances shall conform to
the conditions of their listing and label and themanufacturer?s
installation instructions. The manufacturer?s operating and
installation instructions shall remain attached to the appliance.
SECTION M1501
CLOTHES DRYERS EXHAUST
M1501.1 General.
Originally Posted By: rray
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| pbennett1 wrote: |
| "I don't believe you'll find that the "code provides specific requirements" for dryers because dryers are personal appliances for which the code does not provide specific requirements. "
SHOW ME !!! BECAUSE The code does refer to dryers SECTION M1307 APPLIANCE INSTALLATION M1307.1 General. Installation of appliances shall conform to the conditions of their listing and label and themanufacturer?s installation instructions. The manufacturer?s operating and installation instructions shall remain attached to the appliance. SECTION M1501 CLOTHES DRYERS EXHAUST M1501.1 General. |
Perhaps being just a little too literal, Peter, but I will keep that in mind for future posts.
Do you not understand what those are saying?
M1307 doesn't say anything about "dryers." It does say that the codes don't have anything to say about appliance installation because they are going to let the manufacturer state how their appliances are to be installed.
Hopefully you do know that the manufacturer's installation instructions will override any codes.
Now I challenge you to go find a dryer manufacturer's installation instructions that state that the dryer should/shall/ought to/whatever be installed on a platform 18 inches high. I don't believe you'll find one. You will find them with specific instructions about something and you will find them saying that if they don't have anything to say about something, then applicalbe local, state, and national codes shall apply.
The "dryer" in SECTION M1501 is the only occurrence of "dryer" that I found, as well. And it doesn't even concern the "dryer." It concerns the dryer's exhaust, which is that permanent thing that's in place. It doesn't concern how the dryer is connected to that permanent thing that's in place. That, according to M1307.1 is left to the manufacturer.
But I really think you knew all that.
If you didn't, then education is good.
--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.
Originally Posted By: William Dorsey
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I had a chemistry teacher who used to say, “you caint start a faar with tishue paper.” Apparently he did not know about this fine use of lint. Anything to diminish our dependancy on arab oil! Damn don’t any of you let the government hear about this. They’ll have us all recycling our lint.
–
Handyman Services
handymann@ameritech.net
If it is worth doing, it is worth doing well!