Originally Posted By: tallen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
No, I mean exception 3 ,but I am looking at the 1996 code I know what it means). The whole point of my post was to . well, the point is if there is not a switch in a bedroom or any other habitable room to the best of my very limited knowledge there is a problem.
– I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Todd,
Yeah, it means you are behind the times. 
There is no Exception 3 in the 2002.
But it is worded the same as Exception 2 is in the 2002 NEC.
Exception No. 3: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches, or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.
Exception No. 2: Lighting outlets shall be permitted to be controlled by occupancy sensors that are (1) in addition to wall switches or (2) located at a customary wall switch location and equipped with a manual override that will allow the sensor to function as a wall switch.
Still means you cannot have the sensor WITHOUT the wall switch.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpeck wrote:
IF not in that room, does it now still have a wall switch-controlled light? What if the switch is downstairs, down the hall, and in the kitchen?
WHERE CAN it be to still fulfill the requirement for a wall switch-controlled light?
What does everyone say?
Bob B.?
I say per the NEC I can install all my switches for the required lighting outlets anywhere I chose. I could place them all in a basement closet wall except for the stairway, storage or equipment space switches which have specified locations. .
Originally Posted By: Charles Palmieri This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob I agree with you completely and I would like to mention a reference to Article 90.1, these are design issues and for the Code to be truly uniform it is impossible for the document to be specific in each and every case
90.1 Purpose.
.
(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.
Originally Posted By: rpalac This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
It seems that almost all responses have been around the NEC.
Look at the IBC, ICC, NFPA and a few other codes. They almost all refer to the NEC but I believe that they also have some input as for location.
I know that the ADA code definately has specifics. Aside from that I believe it was the IFC that spelled out switch hieght and footage from common hallwas for lighting switches.
I need help since I don't have my books with me.............some one throw me a life line, Please
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The General Requirements in the IRC has some additional provisions, but not much more than the NEC or IRC Electrical Sections.
IRC R303.4 requires all interior stairs, and the top landing of exterior stairs, to have an artificial light source. For interior stairs the switch must be accessible from the top and bottom, and for exterior stairs the switch just needs to be inside the house (nothing about where inside the house).
But if the switch for an exterior stair was not right at the door (opperable while standing at the door), then I would write it up as a safety concern ... model codes are only a guide for an HI. Plus if ya see a switch for an exterior stair that is not right at the door, IMHO it's also a mind flag of poor workmanship ... 
Just my 2-nickels
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: rrushing This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Look at it this way...
For the sake of a visual description, lets assume that a home is one large circle with rooms spaced like the minutes on a clock, every 10 minutes apart (i.e., 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 oclock)-- 6 rooms present.
Now, going clockwise, the room at 12 oclock has a light fixture that has the light switch controlling it located in the room located at 2 oclock. The room at 2 oclock has a switch controlling the fixture located in the 4 oclock room. Project this all around the home where all the rooms have the light switch located in the room next to it (going clockwise) until finally, the room located at 10 oclock has the switch controlling it at the 12oclock room. Phew....
Now, re-read the 210.70(A)(1).--
"At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom. "
210(A)(1) does not say that the switch in every habitable room has to be for that room. Just that each room has to have one. If the intent was to have the light switch installed in the same habitable room as the fixture, the NEC does not read that way.
Additionally, a hallway cannot be considered a habitable room.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob Badger wrote:
How about I use this one switch to control all the required lighting outlets? 
As far as the model codes go, sure ... as long there are no stairs. Not a very practical installation ... oh yea, thats right ... the model codes are about safety, and not a practical installation ...
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The NEC is obviously not too clear on whether the switch is required be in the bedroom. If you are asking this to know how to decide what to write up on an inspection report then, it seems to me the issue should be one of safety and not code. If you have to wander around in the dark for any length of time to find a switch for the light, it is unsafe and should be on the report as such. If an electrician tried to use this apparent loophole in the NEC to wire a home more cheaply, then the AHJ will nail his butt in his inspection because he can require things by his interpetation of the NEC and his common sense. If you are just looking for things to debate about in the NEC, this obviously is a good one and there are tons more in the book to have fun with.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jmcginnis wrote:
If an electrician tried to use this apparent loophole in the NEC to wire a home more cheaply, then the AHJ will nail his butt in his inspection because he can require things by his interpetation of the NEC and his common sense.
Say what????  
The inspector can not force me to do anything that is not required by the book and they can not 'interpret' in their own way.
Luckily in this state I can appeal the local inspector to the state for an official interpretation.
That said, I do not wire dwelling units and most times the buildings I wire do not have light switches.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob Badger wrote:
jmcginnis wrote:
If an electrician tried to use this apparent loophole in the NEC to wire a home more cheaply, then the AHJ will nail his butt in his inspection because he can require things by his interpetation of the NEC and his common sense.
Say what????  
The inspector can not force me to do anything that is not required by the book and they can not 'interpret' in their own way.
Bob,
I mostly agree with what you said.
IF the PLANS show switches at various locations, it needs to be wired in accordance with the plans.
The local inspector might not be able to make you exceed the code, but they can make you meet the plans.
I only bring this up because of you said "The inspector can not force me to do anything that is not required by the book ... ", and they can, if it is shown on the plans. All permits I've ever seen require the building be built in accordance with the plans, specifications, and drawings. Now, if you had qualified your statement to 'except as shown on the plans' ...
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I will have to conceded that to you Jerry apparently that is the case in some states. I believe Ryan from Salt Lake City does it like you suggested.
Not here, at least at the size jobs I work. The inspectors do not do care if the job meets the prints, the jobs change so much while in process it would be imposable for them to keep up. Here they inspect for MEC (MA Electric Code) violations no more than that.
On the jobs I work those issues are verified by either the GC or a representative of the architect or engineer. 
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob Badger wrote:
On the jobs I work those issues are verified by either the GC or a representative of the architect or engineer. 
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am not sure where Jerry is but my wife builds houses in SW Fla (Ft Myers) and the plans are wrong as often as not when it comes to details like door swings and switch locations so a lot of stuff gets inspected “as built” not “per plan”. When you are dealing with mastered plans it is always going to be that way if the builder allows any changes. The electric plan usually does not change on a mastered house and it is up to the electrician to meet all the required receptacle locations and switch locations when walls move.
That is why she walks all the houses before and after electric rough. She paints the symbols on the floor if there is any question about the location of switches, receptacles or other outlets. She marks all TV, phone and Cat5.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Down here, our building departments go by the plan. If it not on the plan and you put it in extra - usually no problem. If it IS on the plan and you did not put it in, you need a to submit a change of plan.
The only way to get the builders to submit correct plans is to make them submit, and pay for, changes of plans.
On one house I was inspecting the electrical on (the 9th photo at the top of my web site, 21,000 sf) there was NO electrical plan. The electrician said "We don't need a plan, they don't require one here." I asked "Then how can the electrical inspector know what they should be inspecting?" The electrician's reply "There are too many changes on a house like this to keep track of, so they inspect what I tell them to."
My ears picked up on that, and, because I happened to know the Chief Building Inspector (who used to be an electrical inspector there and moved to building inspector, then to Chief), I asked him (the Chief Building Inspector) about it. His response? "OF COURSE they have to have a plan. I will check with the Chief Electrical Inspector to find out why he is not requiring it, I DID when I was there."
Guess what? Yep, the electrical contractor had to draw as-built electrical plans before getting his inspection from the city. He DID NOT like that. Oh well.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Your builders don’t have masstered plans in (Dade?) county?
I know for a fact that is not the case in Lee, Collier and Charlotte.
They have a set of mastered plans and they just redline the structurals. The electric plan goes in the box as mastered with a cnange order sheet that specifies the additions or deletions. They don't get laid out on the plan. It is up to the electrician and the field manager to sort out what the changes really mean.
Things like switches and receptacles get laid out after rough framing as a rule since things still may change.
The customer still has a chance to move stuff on the "pre-drywall" walk.
They are certainly not going to be reprinting plans and submitting them.
In fact the permit application doesn't even get submitted with plans. They just reference the master number.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg,
Some subdivisions have 'master plans', but that does not give the builder the right to rape and pillage.
When the builder submits a master plan, he had better have done his planning. The master plan includes the various options offered: i.e., with loft, office, den, play room in that space, but each much be laid out with electrical, plumbing (if any) and HVAC just like it is going to go in.
There is no change of plan if the loft is replaced with the den, it's an option, right there on the plan. However, if there is a CHANGE to the loft, then a change of plans needs to be submitted.
Sounds like your building departments over there have the wrong idea of what a 'master plan' is. It is not a 'master non-plan' plan which allows them to do what they wish when and as they wish just because they paid the permit fee.
'I'm gonna build me a thousand houses rite char, and some are gonna be bigons and some ain't.' That does not work down here. 
I know what it means). The whole point of my post was to . well, the point is if there is not a switch in a bedroom or any other habitable room to the best of my very limited knowledge there is a problem.
I believe Ryan from Salt Lake City does it like you suggested.