Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In my jurisdiction I require sealed electrical plans for new homes or expansions/remodels that cost over $20,000 … there is some basis in state law for that (yes, I also wear an AHJ hat as a Chief Building Inspector in addition to my PE and HI hats … shhhhhhhh).
For smaller jobs/expansions it doesn't make sense to require electrical plans because the designer always wings it, and then it's never completely right without repeated changes and as-builts ... which just drives me nuts ... NVTS ... nuts ... 
I think Jack was really talking about the legal authority of the AHJ to initially interpret the code (IRC CH-1 and NEC 80.13 & 90.4). I would actually interpret IRC R303.4 to require a light switch on the inside within easy reach of an exterior door. IMO the intent of that code section is that a light be operable from either the top or bottom of any steps ... including exterior steps, but it must be inside. If the switch for the front steps was in the basement it would get written up. Sure, they could appeal to the state ... but that would be a story to tell my grandkids if they even considered it ...
Thats really a topic for the ICC boards, but figured I would share my thoughts anyway ... 
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jerry there are lots of changes you can do that affect the electrical and don’t even need to be reflected on the plans. For example you could just build a small knee wall for a plant shelf that would not show on the plan at all but it will change the receptacle spacing. It is ridiculous to assume every change will get a new electrical plan submitted. There are lots of “flex” changes that will put a wall wherever the customer wants it. The customer can also change a door swing without changing the plan. These are the types of things that move switches and receptacles. My wife has cut out walls and put in closets long after the drywall was up. They are supposed to call in another rough but the inspector usually OKs it on the phone.
Inspectors do 20-40 a day across a 200-300 square mile territory and they barely have time to look at the real stuff.
The guy who did my swimming pool rough was here anbout 45 seconds. He saw one ground clamp and said I was good to go.
He took about a minute and a half to do the final.
Do you really think they are going to notice a switch not installed where the plan says it should be? They barely have time to see if the panel is grounded and they have enough outlets in the kitchen. They sure are not going to look for a “violation” that isn’t even in the code.
How many inspections do you think they do on your coast?
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I go to IAEI meetings and hear these types of things discussed, but the sure way to make the room get quiet is to ask them “how many do YOUR guys do a day?”
If inspectors are doing 30 a day they are not looking at plans … or much of anything else. That is why I won’t take a muni inspector job.
These guys may go on a crusade busting people who are doing a particular thing that pisses the BO off but when they do you could be wrapping splices in duct tape at the other end of the house.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok Fellas,
I will stand by my post and thanks Robert for backing me up… but I will qualify my post to this extent… here in Pennsylvania the AHJ has final say. The NEC states that the AHJ has final say but I suppose it could be different in different states of the union. The AHJ can require you to do things you may not think are what the code is saying to you. There are obviously many different interpetations of various code sections as witnessed by the responses the orginal post here. I have attended many meetings of the IEIA where guys who have been inspecting electrical installations for 30 and 40 years would argue over code interpetations for hours. So even the AHJs don’t agree many times. But when there is a question as to how something should be done, the AHJ has final say. And then you can do what he says or fail the inspection or in most of Pennsylvania, you can fire the AHJ and hire a different inspector for the job and then hope that he likes your work. As far as blueprints and plans are concerned, in over 30 years of wiring houses, I have never even seen an electrical blueprint for a new home construction job. They don’t bother with them here. We’ve always worked with the home owner, contractor and the kitchen and bath people to come up with a plan on site. On “spec” homes the contractor would just tell us to wire it to NEC standards. I once had an AHJ who would not pass my houses unless I put the bedroom receptacles close the the corners of the walls instead of in the middle of the walls. He said that homeowners always centered their furniture in a bedroom and the “centered” receptacles would end up behind the furniture and require the use of extension cords. Nothing in the code requiring me to do what he wanted but he wouldn’t pass the job unless I did. And since what he said made sense from a safety concern, I did what he required and kept him as my inspector. In the major cities of Pennsylvania, they have their own inspectors and you need to know what they want before you wire anything in those cities. In those cases, they have ordinances that add requirements to the NEC and you “MUST” abide by those ordinances. Nuff said!
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well Jack you just proved the point, each area is different.
In your area you have inspectors 'interpreting' code but have never seen a plan.
In my area the inspectors have to do what the State fire marshal tells them to, we have plans but the inspector does not compare the print to the job.
I have never seen an inspector with that kind of time on their hands, that is why a smart customer in this area has people watching to see they got what they paid for.
So my statement for my area is correct, your statement for your area is correct.
Not a one answer fits all question. 
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob,
I have a question for you then… what do the State Fire Marshals use as a reference to tell the inspectors what to do? If they use the NEC, then who determines the “interpetation” of the NEC since there are many disagreements as to what certain sections of the Code might mean (ie: are light switches required to be in the bedroom). Somebody has to be interpeting the code in your area and then enforcing that interpetation. And do these Fire Marshals publish that interpetation so that electricians in general can read and understand what is expected of them?
In reality, it can be a total mess here in Pa at times because the "requirements" for electrical work can and do vary from township to township and city to city. State-wide and even Nation-wide enforcement and interpetation of the NEC would greatly reduce the difficulty. Building codes here in Pa vary as well which can make the Home Inspectors job a nighmare at times as well. Even though we don't do "code" inspections per se, we certainly use the code as a starting point to know what to look for on the inspection. There is a push here in Pa recently to adopt a statewide building code but it is meeting with alot of resistance from contractors and developers.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If an EC has a problem with an inspectors decision there are two avenues to go.
I was incorrect in saying the State Fire Marshal, it is The Board of Fire Prevention Regulations.
From the MA Electric Code
Quote:
90.6. Revise to read as follows:
90.6 Interpretations and Appeals. To promote uniformity of interpretation and application of the provisions of this Code, interpretations may be requested from the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations. Requests for interpretation shall be in the form of a question that can receive a ?Yes? or ?No? answer. This in no way supersedes the right of any individual who is aggrieved by the decision of an Inspector of Wires to appeal from that decision to the Board of Electricians? Appeals in accordance with M.G.L. c. 143 ?3P. The Board of Fire Prevention Regulations shall, upon the request of the Board of Electricians? Appeals, render interpretations to the Board of Electricians? Appeals. It is customary to revise this Code periodically to conform with developments in the art and the result of experience, and the current edition of the Code shall always be used.
I have never in 20 + years had to do either of these, the inspectors I have dealt with apply the code as written. 
From my time on many different electrical forums it seems in many states you will find inspectors with the "Not in my Town" attitude.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Florida went a long way toward consolidating the building codes with the Florida Unified Building Code but you still have the problem of inspectors making up their own rules as they go and daring someone to challenge them.
There is one county where they don’t even qualify the violation sometimes, you just get a “fail” card and it is up to you to figure out what they are failing.
I wouldn’t put up with that but the builders are somewhat at their mercy.
I suggested they save all the blank cards, put them all in one package and send them to the appeals board asking for a clarification.
Where my wife works they had an inspector who was dropping fail cards in everyone’s box without even looking at the house. When questioned he said he had 47 to do that day and he just had to make some go away.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
"210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms. At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom."
Since there is no definition for a lighting outlet, I will 'assume' that it is not the same as a receptacle outlet.
So I would make you install a ceiling light. 
Mike P.
PS A great question for my next meeting.
They close houses every day with a "lighting outlet" that is a blank cover over a ceiling box.
I walked a house with my wife Sunday that didn't have a single "luminaire:" installed and it was CO'ed.
It was pretty hard doing paint punch in the dark 
