Rob Jones writes:
What’s your point? The U.S. government hasn’t established what is acceptable, tolerable, or normal for all sorts of stuff. Ever hear of cigarettes? Some clients are negatively affected by some types of mold that you can’t see or smell… and the only way to know if it is there is to test for it.
So let me get this right…you can tell if a house has a large mold count without testing? How do you do this? So as a buyer I get a mold test. The entire house appears spectacular, then the mold test reveals 392 raw count of Stachybotrys…What does this tell you about the house? Is it harmful? Can it be seen? Do you taste it?
When I mentioned removing all the trim, Sheetrock and other items I was referring to your comment about removing insulation, unless in an attic that is the only way to get to insulation.
You knock our organization and at the same time you come here to find out information and to chat…why? To enlighten us with your infinite wisdom. Apparently you state that you are well versed in this information. Besides stating that IAQ is not needed and when ya see mold just cut it out…theory, which is totally WRONG…There are books stating how to do it, but then again you are the proponent for just encapsulating it…
For an On-line testing organization, you really seem to come here…I have seen the light. I went to ASHI meetings when I first started and they were very arrogant and not warm at all. Guess what, there Elitism has lead them to a dwindling membership. See the Koreshan people…they didn’t let outsiders in…guess what, they are now EXTINCT…ASHI should have taken a lesson from that page book.
Contractors doing mold remediation…you know why? They suck at their trade and have to play “qualified to do others”. Where is their license, insurance, air scrubbers, dehumidifiers, containment equipment? Lets just slap some shockwave on it and call it a day…Try reading the RIGHT books, it might help.
I have never been to the ASHI website nor their chat rooms…why would I? I get all the info I need here. Why do you come here?
What I was saying is testing alone does not determine how mold should be removed.
Home inspectors can be great mold inspectors if they make the effort to learn about the habits of mold. But as far as giving advice for removal of mold or how to even interpret lab results, home inspectors severely lack this skill done to lack of proper training.
It is not the home inspector’s job to give advice on mold. Just note it as a possible hazard that needs to be addressed by somebody who is certified and go on. I am finding home inspectors are taking on way too much unnecessary liability when it comes to mold. Sooner or later when a home inspector puts a noose around his neck, somebody is going kick out the chair. Sad but true.
James,
I don’t know how much Mold you’re dealing with as a home inspector in your area, but I see Mold maybe 3-6 times a year and it’s not even a big deal when I do locate it.
A simple recommendation (to my client) to have the Moldy material properly removed, is pretty much all it takes on my part.
You must have a lot of Mold in your area to be taking on the ancillary service of Mold testing.
I am the most certified in mold in my area. So most major mold problems in central Missouri, I am usually involved in. Usually after a so called mold expert has screwed up. There is not really a lot of mold problems in my area but the Lake of the Ozarks area is the worst due to the combination of humid air from the Lake and the states worst contractors. I get several calls a week about mold but very few have any money, so I tell them a mold remediation protocol will not do any good if you do not have the money to remove the mold properly. Some homeowners are just stupid, they actually listen to their Realtor about the home inspector finding mold is a good thing because mold is not problem so they can use it as a bargaining chip to lower the offer on the home they are buying. Sad but true.
I have been in the mold business for 10 years we suggest 2 outside samples outside the samples inside is important in the placement of the samples the amount of liters taken and the history of the property
If a protocol has to put to gether and a source decected alomng with a
procedure to get rid of the mold it cou
ld cost about $500.00 Its depends on what they want you to do
I came into the mold issues as part of my 18-year engineering career with the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. I have been involved with indoor air quality evaluations for over 25 years now and have spent parts of that career as an active committee member with ASHRAE. Needless to say, I have taken my share of mold samples with a range of sample media. I have made presentations on the subject and I could write pages on it as well.
However, I no longer collect samples to begin with and spend most of my time as a legal expert consultant shooting down those who do collect them. Mold is an extremely complex subject and one that isn’t going to be decided here because it still has not been decided within organizations dedicated to the subject. Thus, the reason that no mold exposure standards exist and without such standards, no determination of safe levels of mold will ever be determined. One of the major problems with determining a safe exposure level is that not everyone reacts the same to mold contaminants, the mold contaminants of concern are highly variable and the target organs are also highly variable.
Mold itself is also a problem because the contaminants can vary greatly. They vary between species, between the same species growing in different environments and even within the same mold colony depending on the growth stages. So-called mold experts like to talk about toxic molds. What they seem to not understand that even toxigenic molds do not always produce toxins. Even then, some of the toxin-producing molds are not as much a concern to me as ones that seems to be totally over-looked, such as the Aspergilli, which are a major concern for nosocomial infections in hospitals. To continue this example, the Aspergilli have a much wider range of environmental conditions in which they can grow and their spores have a much smaller particle size that allows them to travel further into the respiratory system than many other toxic molds. Stachy on the other hand grows only in very wet conditions, produces a large-size sticky spore that does not get air borne well.
Mold sampling has its own Pandora’s Box of issues. Most so-called mold experts can perform sampling according to the way they are trained but do not really have a concept as to exactly what they are doing or why they are doing it. Thus the reason that the experts call for a protocol to perform the sampling–to force the person doing the sampling to develop a sound reason for performing the sampling. Performing sampling simply to know what is present is not a good reason. Experts will tell you that the goal of sampling is to discover the source of illness or to evaluate the potential for exposure. Even then, the presence of mold does NOT prove exposure or illness.
As for me, I will usually try to convince realtors, homeowners or whoever NOT to collect mold samples. Time and again, I have seen where those results get used the wrong way by sharky lawyers and uninformed people, who do not seem to understand that the presence of mold does not prove exposure or illness. If mold is present, it gets cleaned up no matter what it is. And I will add that establishing the presence of mold is not just a matter of visible mold. If you smell mold volatile organic compounds, it is present. More importantly, the home inspector should be focusing his/her evaluation more on moisture problems that can cause mold–no matter if mold is visible or not.
If moisture is present, mold has a great potential to grow. When mold grows, people have potential for hazardous exposure. When people have exposure for exposure to a hazardous substance, they can become ill, and potentially even die. In such cases, universal precautions are usually prescribed, and in the case of mold, those are containment, elimination and cleaning as well as possible. If any sampling is needed, it should be surface sampling to prove the clean, and even then, if the clean-up has been done well, those samples are more for the record than proof.
I agree with most that you say but an assessor needs to verify that the air after cleanup is not at a considered nontoxic level. You are right about everybody has different sensitives to mold so setting these levels are difficult but it is not the assessor’s job to set these levels, it is the Industrial Hygienist who has the final word on what the air samples say on clearance sampling.
By just pulling surface samples would give insufficient data, because it is too random and you will always find some Aspergillus or Penicillium in your sample. According to the mold industry asp/pen at a high enough level is considered toxic. There is no way of determining that with a tape sample. I think you already know that though.
And do not take this the wrong way but helping people screw over other people is a crooked way to live in my book. If you ever make it to mid Missouri, just look me. I would love to have your input on some difficult cases I have going.
To all the HI’s that have made their point on this matter, one has pointed out depends on the location. I live at the Lake of the Ozarks that James spoke about. All the individuals listed have varying types of education and all make good points, BUT,
James works in my area, and I also do mold testing, the reason,
Our lack of building codes, and the fact that everyone thinks he or she is a home builder. The homes here for the most part surround a large body of water, creeks and streams. Homes are closed up for many months, homes are put up for sale or foreclosed on, sometimes for a few years and the other concern is the so called builders that hire chumps in a truck as contractors, windows leak, EFIS leaks and so-on. This is a big issue here and James is one of the best and I hope to follow his lead.
So everyone has an opinion, that what this board is for.
To James, ok, first off, quote to me the exact surface concentration standards in the “mold industry” (whatever that is) for Asp/Pen. Pretty much any concentration of any mold is “toxic” (whatever that means) or more appropriately a hazard, to some person someplace. However, the problem occurs only when the right person gets in the right place and is exposed to the right mold that is growing under the right conditions to be the right hazard for that person. That is a lot of consequences that have to occur.
You also do NOT need an air sample to verify a cleanup. I used to perform air samples as part of the clearance sampling. That is, until I ran into that particular case where my surface samples came back clean (and NO you do not always have Asp/Pen show up on samples) but the air samples showed abnormal concentrations when compared to outdoors. The problem was that the job was performed correctly. However, while putting the area under negative pressure, the remediator was pulling air from a contaminated crawlspace. Am I going to fail the remediator for that? No way, the job was done right. The surfaces were cleaned to a reasonable level and I was satisfied that it was done right.
And who said anything about screwing people over. If I see a case where the plaintiff has a legitimate claim, I either do not take it or advise my client of that fact. However, I have seen my share of law suits where the plaintiff’s claimed link between illness and the mold sample results have no support in the medical literature. I have also seen my share of cases where the person who performed the sampling did a shoddy job. Either they were way out of their league or they did not remain neutral in their sampling methodology.
Further, I don’t care whether the person taking the samples is an IH or not because I have seen my share of those who also did not know what they were doing. IHs do NOT have the final word with me. I have been working with (and sometimes against) IHs most of my professional career, and could have become one if I hadn’t enjoyed the profession I was in. (And, BTW, my credentials are such that I have also collected clearance samples that were accepted by lenders even though I am not an IH.) I have found many IHs who knew how to sample for mold; BUT they did not understand the moisture source, the extent of the problem or how to fix the problem. If you blindly trust an IH, then you either really don’t have a grasp of mold sampling or you are taking their word simply to cover your tail. They can make mistakes. I just make it my job from time to time to find them.
Matthew,
Now that is what I’ve been looking for…a clear explanation as to why Mold testing is completely useless (as I’ve been stating throughout this thread).
Thank you very much for the clear explanation of Mold testing. Your professional feedback is Greatly appreciated.
Matthew, please read my post again.
There is no acceptable standard in the mold industry for clearing a home with tape samples. Your random testing that you perform is useless. I would explain to why I think you would not occassionally getting any Asp/Pen in your surface samples, but the answer is complex. You are confused enough.
If the IH is actually trained in mold, than he most likely knows more than me or you. Why are testing labs using IHs if they do not know anything? Clearance samples should always have another certified professional verifying what the samples say just in case the assessor over looks something on the report. We are dealing with people’s lives here, not just to make a buck.
The job you passed with contaminated air from the crawlspace is totally wrong.
What causes The Asp. lung infection called Aspergillosis? What makes Stachybrotys so fatal? How does nasal cavities get infected mold? How does mold cause most allergenic symptoms to occur? The only answer is they are breathed in. If the concentrations of consider toxic mold is high and when the the environment is right, either in the human body or a building material, the mold will just grow back.
There was an assessor last year in Columbia, MO that was passing remediation jobs with tape samples. Even after he cleared his jobs, some of his clients still got sick after living in the home after just a few hours. He is no longer in business because of the wrong practices he used. Sad but true.
Please again refer back to post #6.
Matthew has just tried to confuse you. He contradicts himself.
Nahhhh!
I’m not confused at all. I fully understand his reasoning.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Please refer back to post #14.
James I have to totally agree with you. Your remarks and items are spot on. I do about 1,000 mold samples per year. I have a microbiologist on staff (Just hired her). How can one say contaminated air is cleaned when it does not passes an air sample. The mold I worry about is the UNSEEN not the seen. There is only one way to determine this and it is an air sampling test. If your pulling contaminated air from under the house then the protocols were written wrong, it should have been cleaned as well.
I think where maybe he may be slightly askew is because all the mold remediation companies may use him, because many of his houses pass the clearance test. I have seen these debates go on and on and I have seen different views. It appears those that read the threads most to their present beliefs then believe those threads and disregard the others. What it comes down to is the best and absolute way to serve the client in the most professional manner possible and tape samples are NOT that way for a clearance test. I cannot specify enough the importance that it is not what is seen, it is what is NOT seen that causes the vast majority of the problems.