Oachi

[Dave_Bowman]

Okay so I went to the OACHI site and this is what is posted. Does MCS know about these statements given that licensing may not even happen let alone what standards if any will be put in place? Aligned with what? The final outcome of the latest survey and other meetings, let alone feedback from the public and inspectors once a decision is made is not even near completion.

And if this is the case as alluded to below why is it that the MCS has not informed the rest of including OAHI, CAHPI, NHICC, ASHI, InterNachi?

The Site is undergoing major maintenance in order for us to ensure we are aligned with the upcoming regulations in Ontario for Home Inspector Licensing. This will include services for our members to ensure their education, skills and regulatory requirements are at or exceed those requirements that are going to be needed for obtaining a license to practice Home Inspections in Ontario. This requires a massive update of the services and we apologize for the lack of service during this time. The OntarioACHI Message board is still available at http://forums.ontarioachi.ca where more information about the updates can be found.

[rcooke (Roy D. Cooke, Sr)]

60

IF? we get licensing .
As I have said many times I would expect all existing home inspectors will be grandfathered in. ( With some adjustments ) .
They will not take away a mans living.

We have many hurdles to get over before licensing comes about .
Seems to me some instant experts seem to think they will be the decision makers.
In Ontario we have a shaky government and we could have an election .
That could instantly change everything .

[Dave_Bowman]

Roy you are correct. Its premature and speculative to say the least to post such nonsense on the OACHI site.

And for the record any licensing has yet to be provided for public/industry feedback.

Legislatively speaking the bill introducing licensing would have to go through these hurdles.

A bill is considered to be “passed” by the Legislative Assembly once it has received three readings; upon receiving Royal Assent, the “passed” bill becomes an Act. An Act, however, may or may not come into force at the Royal Assent stage. Indeed, in Ontario an Act may take effect in five different ways, which may be identified as follows:

1. Royal Assent;
2. fixed date (retroactive);
3. fixed date (prospective);
4. proclamation;
5. and hybrid (combination).

As you can readily appreciate there is a long way to go with ‘regulatory’ requirements that no one knows what will be!

[kwood (KEVIN WOOD, CMI)]

Well Roy I have some other words about the Government besides SHAKY but sure can’t include them on this MB.:mrgreen:
As for your take on the Licensing issue I agree completely along with Dave.

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

To answer Ray Wands initial statement, first and foremost the Ministry of Consumer services are well aware of ALL the public statements that are being made by ALL the Home Inspector Associations.

To the Second point, we at OntarioACHI, and many in InterNACHI believe Licensing WILL happen, this can be seen by the announcements made by those organisations.

Less than 30% return of respondents has been the case for all other surveys to Professions in the past. I believe you’ll find this latest one is no different. Apathy does not make policy.

And as for not informing the Associations that represent the Home Inspectors, the MCS has made public it’s intentions, and the proceedings released so far to all who are interested. This includes (in alphabetical order) ASHI, CAHPI, CanNACHI, InterNACHI, NHICC, OAHI and OntariACHI. If you are a member of one of these other associations and you have not been informed of their position on the situation, then I suggest you take it up with them, both InterNACHI and OntarioACHI have decided to show that they believe Licensing is coming.

As for “All existing Home Inspectors” being Grandfathered (or transferred) into a License, the whole point of the exercise is to tighten up controls in the profession.

If the Ministry sees that there is a problem with the calibre of Inspectors, to think they are going to give, carte-blanche, licenses to the very people who are seen to be part of the problem is naive.

To make a statement to that effect misleads those poorly trained and unprofessional inspectors, who are causing many of the problems in the public’s eye, that they will still have work after licensing, is detrimental to those of us in the profession who are trying to raise the bar.

It was proved in both B.C. and Alberta in the Home Inspection profession that not all inspectors had sufficient skills or education or other mandatory requirements to obtain a license. There was a period of transition that allowed Inspectors to reach the requirements but some inspectors were lost.

Government is made up of elected “representatives” and the permanent civil-service. This process although initiated by the Elected is being managed by the civil-service along lines supported by the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP. If you think a change in elected government, which may or may not happen, is going to stop this process, then I believe you need to rethink.

Licensing is coming. Most Associations in the Home Inspection professions know it and are making decisions based upon it’s inevitability.

There are two ways to go, in my opinion. A Constructive way where you work toward helping the profession, or the non-constructive, divisive way where you deny anything will change and when change happens you bail,leaving everyone else in the mire and someone else to pick up the pieces.

InterNACHI and OntarioACHI together have opted for the former choice.

[smay (Scott May, CMI CCHI)]

@rcooke

60

IF? we get licensing .
As I have said many times I would expect all existing home inspectors will be grandfathered in. ( With some adjustments ) .
They will not take away a mans living.

We have many hurdles to get over before licensing comes about .
Seems to me some instant experts seem to think they will be the decision makers.
In Ontario we have a shaky government and we could have an election .
That could instantly change everything .

Roy I think that your assumption that all existing home inspectors will be grandfathered in, is accurate only when they meet the minimum licensing/regulation requirements.
Much like Alberta, where there was a set time period before the licensing criteria had to be met, IMO it will happen here as well.
If you think any Gov’t change will get MPP’s to walk away from this cash grab I beg to differ.
Sorry I don’t know exactly who you are referring to as “some instant experts” but those that have attended the MCS meetings know full well of what is transpiring but as you know have to keep it under wraps for now per the Chatham House Rules.
I am aware that Realtors too, have been sent a survey about licensing which to me IMO means that it does not matter who’s opinion comes into play licensing or regulation (your choice) is going to happen, despite many efforts by hommies who have contacted their MP’s and written letters or filled out surveys.
Best advice as has been said by many is get bumping up your CEU credits.

A bit disappointed that you (Roy) and Ray chose not to attend the NOS, it was a very informative day. (I was told you both declined the invitation)
This is JMO as like most others who visit here!

To all have a great day!

[rcooke (Roy D. Cooke, Sr)]

@linkster

To answer Ray Wands initial statement, first and foremost the Ministry of Consumer services are well aware of ALL the public statements that are being made by ALL the Home Inspector Associations.
…I think you are kidding your self no way could this be possible.
To the Second point, we at OntarioACHI, and many in InterNACHI believe Licensing WILL happen, this can be seen by the announcements made by those organisations.
…Has any one disputed this ?
Less than 30% return of respondents has been the case for all other surveys to Professions in the past. I believe you’ll find this latest one is no different. Apathy does not make policy.
…SO!!

And as for not informing the Associations that represent the Home Inspectors, the MCS has made public it’s intentions, and the proceedings released so far to all who are interested. This includes (in alphabetical order) ASHI, CAHPI, CanNACHI, InterNACHI, NHICC, OAHI and OntariACHI.
…How do you know this !
If you are a member of one of these other associations and you have not been informed of their position on the situation, then I suggest you take it up with them, both InterNACHI and OntarioACHI have decided to show that they believe Licensing is coming.

As for “All existing Home Inspectors” being Grandfathered (or transferred) into a License, the whole point of the exercise is to tighten up controls in the profession.
…Why who thinks this is necessary I see many other groups who really need improvements Market place shows some of these regularly .
If the Ministry sees that the re is a problem with the calibre of Inspectors, to think they are going to give, carte-blanche, licenses to the very people who are seen to be part of the problem is naive.
…Looking at complaints at the BBB shows home Inspectors have a lot less complaints % wise then lots of others
To make a statement to that effect misleads those poorly trained and unprofessional inspectors who are causing many of the problems in the public’s eye, and is detrimental to those of us in the profession who are trying to raise the bar.
Where was this statement (" misleads those poorly trained and unprofessional inspectors who are causing many of the problems in the public’s eye, ") made
.Having been in this industry since the last century I have seen continuing improvements …
It was proved in both B.C. and Alberta in the Home Inspection profession that not all inspectors had sufficient skills or education or other mandatory requirements to obtain a license.
…From what I read it has not been proved there has been little improvements in these provinces .
I also have been following what has happened in the USA when licensees where brought in and they too have not had much improvements
There was a period of transition that allowed Inspectors to reach the requirements but some inspectors were lost.
…We have lost inspectors regularly ever since I have been in this industry…
Government is made up of elected “representatives” and the permanent civil-service. This process although initiated by the Elected is being managed by the civil-service along lines supported by the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP.

If you think a change in elected government, which may or may not happen, is going to stop this process, then I believe you need to rethink.
…Sorry seeing how many things die on the order paper when elections are held ,it is you who might need to look back and see.
Licensing is coming. Most Associations in the Home Inspection professions know it and are making decisions based upon it’s inevitability.
…You could be rite licensing is coming but that does not mean it is a good thing.
There are two ways to go, in my opinion. A Constructive way where you work toward helping the profession, or the non-constructive, divisive way where you deny anything will change and when change happens you bail,leaving everyone else in the mire and someone else to pick up the pieces.
…For you top even insinuate that I , Raymond and others have not helped this industry is a big insult
InterNACHI and OntarioACHI together have opted for the former choice.
Bunk (" together have opted ") you have just come in recently

Licensing has come up many times over the years.
For you to try and convince me and others how important you are is silly.
As I have said before I do not think we need a self appointed group to have control of our industry.

[kwood (KEVIN WOOD, CMI)]

I think all Raymond is trying to say Len is be careful with your wording.
We have already seen what has happened in the past before you came along and it is not pretty.

[Dave_Bowman]

To answer Ray Wands initial statement, first and foremost the Ministry of Consumer services are well aware of ALL the public statements that are being made by ALL the Home Inspector Associations.

Really?

To the Second point, we at OntarioACHI, and many in InterNACHI believe Licensing WILL happen, this can be seen by the announcements made by those organisations.

You believe and others may think that but that which is fine, but support for licensing is anything but a slam dunk.

Less than 30% return of respondents has been the case for all other surveys to Professions in the past. I believe you’ll find this latest one is no different. Apathy does not make policy.

The case for all others perhaps, which does not relate to the current survey so don’t imply otherwise.

And as for not informing the Associations that represent the Home Inspectors, the MCS has made public it’s intentions, and the proceedings released so far to all who are interested. This includes (in alphabetical order) ASHI, CAHPI, CanNACHI, InterNACHI, NHICC, OAHI and OntariACHI. If you are a member of one of these other associations and you have not been informed of their position on the situation, then I suggest you take it up with them, both InterNACHI and OntarioACHI have decided to show that they believe Licensing is coming.

I am well aware what the others are doing and NO ONE is stating on their websites they are shuffling chairs because of UNKOWN legislation! As for the other associations they are not foolish enough as you have been to pronounce finality which has too many factors to say anything is carved in stone. You are really good at facilitating your own views as factual. You have done this before implying facts as truth when the truth is anything but. You tried this by implying that one breaks the forum rules by not registering under their own name which is bunk.

As for “All existing Home Inspectors” being Grandfathered (or transferred) into a License, the whole point of the exercise is to tighten up controls in the profession.

Tighten up what? Nothing has tightened up and their you go again assuming something which has a long way to fruition.

If the Ministry sees that there is a problem with the calibre of Inspectors, to think they are going to give, carte-blanche, licenses to the very people who are seen to be part of the problem is naive.

Well I guess you are truly naive. The problem is the ministry knows there is not a problem, and the stats bear that out. Shame on you for implying their is rampant problems but then when you embellish facts from fiction I guess this is your modus operandi.

To make a statement to that effect misleads those poorly trained and unprofessional inspectors, who are causing many of the problems in the public’s eye, that they will still have work after licensing, is detrimental to those of us in the profession who are trying to raise the bar.

What poorly trained and what stats back up your so called facts. The stats speak that there are concerns within every association. So now you dispute hard proven factual tangible evidence which indicates otherwise. But this is part of your agenda. Make everyone other then you and your group to be above the rest.

It was proved in both B.C. and Alberta in the Home Inspection profession that not all inspectors had sufficient skills or education or other mandatory requirements to obtain a license. There was a period of transition that allowed Inspectors to reach the requirements but some inspectors were lost.

Well sure that maybe the case, so why wouldn’t options be provided in legislation to accommodate same? The reason is its not as cut and dried as you seem to think legislation must factor in the lowest common denominator.
Again we don’t know any more then you pretend to know what legislation and other salient points will be put into legislation, so don’t sell us goods you cannot predict.

Government is made up of elected “representatives” and the permanent civil-service.

Really? Gee I had no idea.

This process although initiated by the Elected is being managed by the civil-service along lines supported by the Liberals, Conservatives and NDP.

I disagree and I know for a fact the other party, particularly the conservatives have different outlook and policies which are essentially free market and keeping government out of business operations.

If you think a change in elected government, which may or may not happen, is going to stop this process, then I believe you need to rethink.

I don’t need to rethink anything. Any bills pending if the government falls are not moved forward unless reintroduced by the new government.

Licensing is coming. Most Associations in the Home Inspection professions know it and are making decisions based upon it’s inevitability.

That is solely your opinion and stop making it out to be its everyones will, wish, dictate. That is simply not the case.

There are two ways to go, in my opinion. A Constructive way where you work toward helping the profession, or the non-constructive, divisive way where you deny anything will change and when change happens you bail,leaving everyone else in the mire and someone else to pick up the pieces.

Well with people like you at the helm everyone should be concerned and I would not to want to pick up the pieces you leave behind because you have a tendency to dictate terms rather than working cohesively.

InterNACHI and OntarioACHI together have opted for the former choice.

InterNachi has made no such public statements and we all know that the only person whose opinion and direction counts is Nicks. So lets hear what he has to say on that matter. I put more trust in Nick then I do you.
From Oachi - InterNACHI Inspection Forum Oachi - Canadian Home Inspectors - InterNACHI®️ Forum

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@kwood

I think all Raymond is trying to say Len is be careful with your wording.
We have already seen what has happened in the past before you came along and it is not pretty.

I agree Kevin, and the same can be said for all of us.

For example:

This post,the words “When it becomes accepted” and “when you qualify” seem to agree with the current InterNACHI/OntarioACHI position on the matter. I guess your position is in line with that as it was your post.

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@Dave_Bowman

Really? Gee I had no idea. I disagree and I know for a fact the other party, particularly the conservatives have different outlook and policies which are essentially free market and keeping government out of business operations.

Do not allow your political bias and personal animosities hide the facts Ray.

The DAA model was introduced by the NDP in 1990 (Bob Rae), continued to be developed under Mike Harris and Ernie Eves (both Conservative) through the latter part of the 1990s and the early 2000s, continued and expanded under Dalton McGuinty (Liberal). The DAA model is here to stay, and in all governments since the second world war Consumer protection has been at the top of the list of legislation, because it is Consumers that elect the Government and Consumerism that drives the economy in Ontario (80%)

While the broad outlook of each party may be inherently different, the way in which they have successively chosen to implement policies has been very similar, with a hands off approach through Agencies and DAA’s. This is typical of most western Governments. It also gives a level of “culpable deniability” to the ruling party.

So Gee! I guess you are right, you did have no idea. I hope I have corrected this position.

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@Dave_Bowman

And as for not informing the Associations that represent the Home Inspectors, the MCS has made public it’s intentions, and the proceedings released so far to all who are interested. This includes (in alphabetical order) ASHI, CAHPI, CanNACHI, InterNACHI, NHICC, OAHI and OntariACHI.
…How do you know this !

Because the information is in the public domain. You just have to look for it!

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@Dave_Bowman

As for “All existing Home Inspectors” being Grandfathered (or transferred) into a License, the whole point of the exercise is to tighten up controls in the profession.
…Why who thinks this is necessary I see many other groups who really need improvements Market place shows some of these regularly .
If the Ministry sees that the re is a problem with the calibre of Inspectors, to think they are going to give, carte-blanche, licenses to the very people who are seen to be part of the problem is naive.
…Looking at complaints at the BBB shows home Inspectors have a lot less complaints % wise then lots of others

Comparing one group to another as an argument for not tightening up on poor practices?
If I was to say that Drunk Drivers only cause 2% of the deaths on the road, therefore we should ban all sober drivers it would have the same merit. i.e. None!

Yes other professions and trades cause problems, that is undisputed. Yes they should have their professions and trades tightened up on, I suspect that is also undisputed outside of their trades. But it does not give us the right to say because they are worse, we can overlook the problems in ours.

As for the BBB, as the percentage of Inspectors against that of other “more complained about” trades use it, then the level of complaints are going to be lower. In addition, because our services are to a greater extent “intangible” to the public, the complaints will be relatively less too. If you are going to argue, argue apples to apples.

[kwood (KEVIN WOOD, CMI)]

@linkster

I agree Kevin, and the same can be said for all of us.

For example:

This post,the words “When** and if **it becomes accepted” and “when you qualify” seem to agree with the current InterNACHI/OntarioACHI position on the matter. I guess your position is in line with that as it was your post.

Oops my bad!:shock:

[rcooke (Roy D. Cooke, Sr)]

Post 12 by Leonard below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bowman http://nachi.cachefly.net/forum/images/2006/buttons/viewpost.gif
*As for “All existing Home Inspectors” being Grandfathered (or transferred) into a License, the whole point of the exercise is to tighten up controls in the profession. *
…Why who thinks this is necessary I see many other groups who really need improvements Market place shows some of these regularly .
*If the Ministry sees that the re is a problem with the calibre of Inspectors, to think they are going to give, carte-blanche, licenses to the very people who are seen to be part of the problem is naive. *
…Looking at complaints at the BBB shows home Inspectors have a lot less complaints % wise then lots of others
______________________________________________________________________

Comparing one group to another as an argument for not tightening up on poor practices?
If I was to say that Drunk Drivers only cause 2% of the deaths on the road, therefore we should ban all sober drivers it would have the same merit. i.e. None!

Yes other professions and trades cause problems, that is undisputed. Yes they should have their professions and trades tightened up on, I suspect that is also undisputed outside of their trades. But it does not give us the right to say because they are worse, we can overlook the problems in ours.

As for the BBB, as the percentage of Inspectors against that of other “more complained about” trades use it, then the level of complaints are going to be lower. In addition, because our services are to a greater extent “intangible” to the public, the complaints will be relatively less too. If you are going to argue, argue apples to apples.

From Oachi - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f48/oachi-86187/#post1107413#ixzz2jyjrfNa7

Quotes (" Originally Posted by Dave Bowman http://nachi.cachefly.net/forum/images/2006/buttons/viewpost.gif ")

I can not find where Dave said this .
I think Leonard has taken** part of one of my posts** (#6) to make up this quote.

[tsmith8 (Timothy J. Smith, CMI)]

Industries change and the HI profession is no different. If i had to choose between a group of pessimist’s or Optimist’s. I most defiantly would go with the optimists.

Just because you don’t agree with something happening, doesn’t mean it won’t.

Licensing is going to happen. Make the best of it, it will make transition easier on yourself.

[Dave_Bowman]

Industries change and the HI profession is no different. If i had to choose between a group of pessimist’s or Optimist’s. I most defiantly would go with the optimists.

Just because you don’t agree with something happening, doesn’t mean it won’t.

Licensing is going to happen. Make the best of it, it will make transition easier on yourself.

And just because you think something will happen doesn’t mean it will happen either, there are just too many variables for anyone to say with certainty what will transpire.

As I understand it you are representing Nachi at the table. The problem is not what Nachi has said, done, or posted rather the tripe that comes out by someone who has no idea what will transpire due to complexities of the issues and how the legislature works. Bills die for a variety of issues and for anyone to suggest that the Conservatives or NDP would move forward is an opinion only and not factual.

Yes its good to be pessimistic and its good to be analytical - if you want to call being analytical pessimism thats fine, but given the history of liberals and their largess I guess you must be an optimistic liberal.

The best thing that could happen in Ontario is to turf these lying liberals and their corruption right out the door. The electorate will decide the fate of this licensing bill and that is where the buck will stop. Time will tell in the end.

[tsmith8 (Timothy J. Smith, CMI)]

@Dave_Bowman

And just because you think something will happen doesn’t mean it will happen either, there are just too many variables for anyone to say with certainty what will transpire.

As I understand it you are representing Nachi at the table. The problem is not what Nachi has said, done, or posted rather the tripe that comes out by someone who has no idea what will transpire due to complexities of the issues and how the legislature works. Bills die for a variety of issues and for anyone to suggest that the Conservatives or NDP would move forward is an opinion only and not factual.

Yes its good to be pessimistic and its good to be analytical - if you want to call being analytical pessimism thats fine, but given the history of liberals and their largess I guess you must be an optimistic liberal.

The best thing that could happen in Ontario is to turf these lying liberals and their corruption right out the door. The electorate will decide the fate of this licensing bill and that is where the buck will stop. Time will tell in the end.

You are absolutely right, we have no idea what will transpire. Positioning an association or even just an individual to be ready if it does go through is the best case scenario.

I also agree, send the liberals to the side and put someone in change who has at least half a clue on what to do.

My point is only that you should not negatively judge someone for preparing, the fact is that licensing of home inspectors IS on the table. If we are fully prepared and ready and it falls through………………so what. If we do nothing and it does go through, well we are up S%*^ creek and the government is holding the paddle.

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@tsmith8

You are absolutely right, we have no idea what will transpire. Positioning an association or even just an individual to be ready if it does go through is the best case scenario…If we do nothing and it does go through, well we are up S%*^ creek and the government is holding the paddle.

Couldn’t have said it better myself Tim.

[linkster (Leonard Inkster, CMI)]

@kwood

Oops my bad!:shock:

No problem Kevin, we all have our moments. That’s what makes us human.