Open Grounds

Originally Posted By: tthompson
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/182.jpg ]



Most of the house had open grounds


Originally Posted By: tlempe
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Ive seen alot of homes in my area that all the outlets show an open ground but one, thats the circuit that the washing machine is on. Typical for an older home.? Its hard to tell but it looks like theres only 2 gounded circuits. No main?


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I count 9 circuits and I count 8 (possibly 9) grounds.


I am not commenting on all the other things in the panel (other than the grounds and neutrals are on the same terminal bar and this is not the service equipment - hopefully not anyway), just the number of grounds,

![](upload://mmtbrGjF4GZB5Q07b21oT0o4iFE.jpeg)


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: tthompson
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This is in the house my sister bought…


She is planning on replacing the panel...

But yes this panel is being used right now during reno...

Everytime we run equipment the lights dim. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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I’m with Jerry on this one. I was going to say I saw at least seven


equipment ground conductors before he enlarged the area. icon_wink.gif


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Zero ‘ground’ conductors…


I will continue to 'act' like an a$% if it will get you to use the correct terms.

If you are commenting on electrical systems you ARE acting like a professional.

Use the correct terms.

Would you like an a$% like me to call you on it or an attorney?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: tthompson
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Thanks for the information…


I only called it an "open ground"

because that's what the Sure Tester calls it...

If the correct wording is zero "ground" conductors...

then I will change my ways...

No need for anyone to be an a$%


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Mike Parks wrote:
Zero 'ground' conductors..

I will continue to 'act' like an <b>a$%</b> if it will get you to use the correct terms.


And you do act like one at times like this.

Quote:
If you are commenting on electrical systems you ARE acting like a professional.

Use the correct terms.

Would you like an <b>a$%</b> like me to call you on it or an attorney?

Mike P.


You betcha, and I'd bury you.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Mike Parks:


Instead of the criticism's why don't you try to help the Home Inspector?

If your are taking about a term that is described in a different manner, or if you have some additional examples why don't you share them with us.

I think that would be a better use of your time, and our time.

When a question is asked, come back with something meaningful or just stay silent.

How should the terms have been used and why?

Can you describe a true "NEUTRAL" and make it clear to the Home Inspector?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Joe,


Not just to the HI, but to most electricians.

Typical electrician says 'This receptacle is wired with a hot, ground, and a neutral.'

Excuuuuse me. It is wired with a grounded conductor (which is not a neutral), an ungrounded conductor, and an equipment ground conductor.

But we have been here before. Most electricians, let alone HIs, do not use "grounded conductor", but instead use "neutral", whether or not it is a "neutral". We decided to use commonly accepted and recognizable terms.

I think Mike just got up on the wrong side of the bed yesterday.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Jerry:


So true, and about 20 years ago we called it the:

"Identified Conductor"

The Code Panels really kicked around the definition of a "neutral" that was proposed for the new code, but did not pass it.

That word was actually used as a "nickname" when the 120/240V 3-wire Edison System was described in some of my early electrical books.

Another reason why the term is not defined, is because it would require a revision many manufacturers technical documents, manuals, and product specifications.

This information was given to me by a former NEMA Field Representative Bob Pullen. He was a great guy, and Code Expert like no other.

I travels the circuit with him around the country, attending IAEI meetings discussing the code.

![icon_cry.gif](upload://r83gSGUzNOacIqpjVReDwcR83xZ.gif) Too bad he's gone!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Joe,


The "identified" conductor, yep.

Still use and see that term sometimes. Such as for lamp cord and the like.

One conductor is smooth, the other has ridges, or both are smooth and one has all the writing on it, those are the "identified" conductor, which goes to the grounded conductor terminal or the shell on a screw socket lampholder.

I'm outta here for about 10 days (no phone, no internet), you've got it all under control, right?

You'll play nice now, ya hear?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Jerry:


Nothing Doing!

I always carry my laptop with me so I can get online.

Me have it under control?

I will try very hard to be nice, even though some have the wrong impression of me, and even tell me so in Public here in their replies!

Maybe we should have a "Roasting Forum" so I too could express my feelings!

I always tried not to burn any bridges during my career, but not as I get older, it is sometimes very hard to do!

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“Can you describe a true “NEUTRAL” and make it clear to the Home Inspector?”


Joe

No I can not. Would you please do so.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


"You betcha, and I'd bury you."

You are one of those who 'might' be successful. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Scott Wilson
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Mike,


You really shouldn’t pick on the others, rather, you should try to help them.


There are people here that could pick your posts to pieces, but are not doing so.


Joe,
I commend you for your patience!!


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Thanks Scott, Mike is just trying to make it clear that the language of the Home Inspector is in need of some revision, he just has a problem saying like I do!


In fact I don't ever plan on learning how to speak in electrical terms as the HI does, so if they want to be able to confront someone like me or you they will have to learn the electrical industries and NEC language!

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Scott Wilson
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I’ll see if I can do something besides my complaining. icon_smile.gif


Even though there no Official definition of neutral, (Read Joe's posts, he and others have worked very hard, in vain to get one), the wording is used 81 times in the '99NEC. There are many unofficial definitions, and all of them are very similar.

For practical purposes, in residential single phase:

Neutral is an easy to use replacement term for the (grounded conductor).

It's white or gray, and is solidly attached to the ufer ground, metallic waterpiping, ground rods, etc. (grounding electrode), in all residential applications.
The connection is made between the "neutral" and the grounding electrode by the grounding electrode conductor, which you'll see as a single wire, #8 or larger, often bare or with armor.

The "neutral point" is a point that is electrically the same distance from both the hot wires ungrounded conductors. On the winding of the power company's transformer, this midpoint is tapped, and intentionally grounded to provide a reference point. Without the reference, the voltages from the 2 "hots" to the "neutral" will vary according to their loads (but still adding up to 240), and the breakers or fuses won't trip or blow under a fault condition.

Ground is the actual connection between the circuit and the earth.
Grounded Conductor is the white or gray wire
Equipment Grounding Conductor is the green or bare wire.

Terminology? Well what can we expect when even the manufacturers sell 12-2 with Ground?


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Joe


Thank you.

"Thanks Scott, Mike is just trying to make it clear that the language of the Home Inspector is in need of some revision, he just has a problem saying like I do!"

Mike P.

PS I will tone down my comments.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Lemme see…terminology. Ok, I am pretty good at this one.


The definition are as follows:

Ground- that would be the plane that I fall onto every time I get too drunk.

Neutral- that would be Switzerland.

Identified conductor- that would be the driver of the train that ran over my uncle Rufus that was picked out of the police line up by my cousin Billy Bob.

You guys are way too funny! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers