Panel location

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#1

Originally Posted By: rray
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Where are my code boys? This panel was located on the ceiling in the basement, difficult to work on at best.


![](upload://8jrEajK8tdNMhGHnB1aIeqoy5Ap.jpeg)

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#2

Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer
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Russel,


I would have to agree that it is not possibly the best location or the first one I would choose. It makes it dangerous to work on (over head). I was scanning the code book (NEC 2002) the only thing that I could find is 230.70(A)(1) which said that the service panel must be located in a readily assessable location and the only thing I could find on height restrictions would be if the breakers are being used as switches (like to turn off and on lights) then 404.8(A) states that they can not be over 6' 7" from floor to location of grip. So, If that service panel was readily assessable????????????? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Tim

#3

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Russel good question. I have no ideal where the answer can be found.


Could it be in the manufactured specs that state the panel should be mounted vertical. Or is it in workable space,30,36,ect… Now I will have to look further into this.

#4

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Hmm…is there not a code that would require the breakers to be up when in the off position when the box is mounted horizontally. BZZZZZZ…busted. icon_biggrin.gif


Tim,

Dangerous? Whad da ya mean?

Joe Myers

#5

Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer
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Joe,


I believe you are referring to 240.81 of the NEC 2002, but if you read it all, it does say: Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open "off" or closed "on" position. Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the "up" position of the handle shall be the "on" position.. ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

On the picture they do have "on" and "off" marked. I would say this would be a call for the AHJ (as a past Electrical code inspector, I think I would have found a code reference that would have required it to be mounted on a vertical wall if at all possible, even if I had to just pull authority, such as unsafe installation ) As far as dangerous goes, working overhead (sometimes in live panels) makes the job precarious even for a qualified professional (electrician)

Tim

#6

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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Did anybody find an answer to this?

#7

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Tim,


Not that I am one to doubt you infinite wisdom but most electrical work in the basement takes place overhead. While fatigue certainly does play a role in safety I would think taking short breaks while working over head is a must, whether it is working on a panel or running romex through the joists. Kinda common sense, don't you think?

BTW...up would not be possible in this case, which is my point.

Joe Myers

#8

Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer
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Joe,


The article says if the the breakers are "vertical" they must be up for "ON." As you know, some panels install the breakers horizontally were there is no up or down, but only side to side, which this article takes into account and allows for.

Please realize that I do not believe that the intent of this article was to allow people to mount their panel boxes on the ceilings ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif) But the codes are only as good as the AHJ that will render interpretations on the intent!

BTW: O.K.- I will concede, You are right about working over head

Tim

#9

Originally Posted By: mhenderson
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I noticed that there was a smoke alarm(I hope thats what it was) next to this panel…It seems that this might be some kind of fire hazard because its attached right to the joists…I might have suggested 5/8 dry-wall or some other kind of firewall for safety puposes…any shorts sparking …arcing…& poof if that joist or subfloor catches you will have big trouble…just my thots tho…


Mike

#10

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Tim,


In vertical installations the breakers must be up in the on position. Since the breakers are being operated vertically as opposed to rationally or horizontally they will have to be up in the on position. It is not saying that they can not be vertical and rational. If you take a look at sub panels when the breakers are mounted vertically you will see that in the up position they are always on.

Back to my point now....since they are mounted on the ceiling they are being operated horizontally, vertically or rationally depending on which side of the panel you are standing, correct! Think about that for a while and then share those thoughts with us. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Joe Myers

#11

Originally Posted By: Neil Brinker
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Hey Guys, Neil Brinker here. I’m new to NACHI and of course this message board. I’ve some electrical background and still do the odd job. You all have good and valid points about the sub panel install on the ceiling. AHJ does have the final word but there is no logical reason to do this. Notice the drain pipe and water supply pipe near by. You must find a better place to put these subs and the way the wire attaches into the romex connector looks pretty bad also. If I were inspecting electrically there is no way that type of poor workmanship would fly. Thanks for hearing me out and I look forward to reading your posts in the future. icon_smile.gif

#12

Originally Posted By: rray
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Considering all the marvelously good locations that were available in this basement (basement in San Diego?), the installer almost had to install it here just as a joke to see if anyone would notice. Buyer (who had some electrical experience) was incredulous. He had not noticed the panel until I pointed it out to him. He walked right under it while I, at 6’4" walked into it.


Good catch on Neil's part about the three Romex coming into one knockout; all three were crimped badly.

Also, in analyzing this as a subpanel, the main power coming in was stranded aluminum. Nowhere else in the house could I find stranded aluminum. Considering the location of the panel about six feet from main power supply to the house and the meter, I guessed that this panel had been tapped in somewhere in front of the meter and main panel.

I found out today that electrician was not too happy about the placement, and, yes, the panel was tapped into the electric before the meter. Seller claimed that her electrician son had installed the panel back in the '70s and put the new panel in only a few months ago. Considering that this panel had most of the house equipment wired to it, imagine 30 years of free electricity to most of your house!

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#13

Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer
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Russel,


This would explain why someone would want to hide the panel in the floor joists and not on the wall where someone might normally look to find a panel ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

And where would I find this wizard of an electrician, I could use some FREE electric in my home

Tim

#14

Originally Posted By: rray
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Seller’s electrician son lives in Seattle. For just the cost of round-trip airfare, hotel lodging, rental car, and meals, he as agreed to check out your house in Pennsylvania. . . .

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#15

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Hmmm… I wonder what happens when the electric company turns off the power to your house only to find the lights did not go out! icon_biggrin.gif


Come to think of it, if they were to go that far they would already know what you did.

Joe Myers

#16

Originally Posted By: rray
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I wondered how they got away with it for 30 years, but that’s not hard to conceive actually.


Little ol' lady was 87, I think. So she was 57 when her son did the panel. He probably was mid-30s at the time, new electrician, wanted to test his skills and do something "nice" for mom at the same time. Power company never noticed because original owners had been there since 1938, and two people in their late '60s probably are not going to change their electricity-using habits just because son put in a few new items for them to use. So power company never expected power use to jump and, of course, it didn't.

Now when new owners go to make everything legitimate, I guess the power company will simply decide that new owners put in new stuff, have more residents, etc.

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Home inspections. . . .
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#17

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Russel,


Did you not advise them that stealing power is a serious crime? I would think that once they occupy the property they would want to have it changed so they don't get caught stealing power.

Joe Myers

#18

Originally Posted By: rray
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Yes, theft of services can be a state and federal crime. New owners are bringing things up to snuff (and giving me some of the cactus and succulents that they don’t want).

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Home inspections. . . .


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