PEX-Leaking blowing fittings H E L P !! New Homes

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Micheal,


Wirsbo is only one manufactur of PEX. I didn't find their site very informative but I don't think their connection system is main stream.


Go here
![](upload://ithlYIIsSocSTZSjMsIrTmQz3km.jpeg)
I think you'll find a lot more PEX connections done like this


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Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
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Originally Posted By: Julie
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Hi


I was told by the company that installed it that it was pex. Otherwise, I would never know the terms.
Yes, I will get a photo. I will have to go to my neighbors, because my wall where it is opened in a tiny space taht will not allow for a photo.

Thank you again for the info.

I do know that 2 neighbors had work done by the original plumber (bad news) this past week. The fttings now (that they repalced0 look like wedding bands, they are dark. They look really tight (per the owner of the houses) around the pipes.

The builder is now (per phone call I had with him)blaming the problem on these 2 things:
1. Our recirculation pump (he installed it as required by code)
2. The Florida public water system I(chemicals)
He told us "maybe if you turn off the re-circulation pump you can prevent another flood or at least delay it. " (end quote)

Isn't that just great advice? Unbelivable. We have a 5,000 sq ft home. The master bath is up stairs and far away from the garage. It takes over 6 minutes for warm water to get there without the recirculation pump.

Thanks
Julie


Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Julie wrote:
The fttings now (that they repalced0 look like wedding bands, they are dark. They look really tight (per the owner of the houses) around the pipes.

Sounds right but given the low confidence in the plumber right now I would still check myself with a GO-NO GO gauge.


Julie wrote:

The builder is now (per phone call I had with him)blaming the problem on these 2 things:
1. Our recirulation pump (he installed it as required by code)

Recirulation systems do tend to wear out the piping system over time. A long time, even for thin walled type "M" copper pipes. I would not expect to see a problem in a house that is only 1 1/2 years old

Julie wrote:

2. The Florida public water system I(chemicals)

PEX does not particularly like chlorine which is commonly in public water systems to varying degrees. As far a I know common water supply should not be a problem. For some sort of pool application an alternative pipe might be a better idea.

IF, (and that's a "I really don't think so" IF) either one of these were the problem, then leakages would be seen throughout the length of the PEX tube and not just at connections.

Find out if the PEX your plumber used PEX that meets ASTM F876/F877. If it has then one of the standards it meets is NSF CL-R/CL-TD - testing and conformance to NSF Protocol P171, Chlorine Resistance of Plastic Piping Materials. Meets and exceeds pass/fail criteria for both Traditional Domestic and Domestic Continuous Re-circulation ratings.

PEX also does not like UV rays. It should not be left exposed to sunlight for a month or two. How did your plumber store it and for how long? Was it sitting in his shop infront of a window for 6 months? You are not likely to get a truthfull answer on this one. It should also not be directly connected to a UV sterilizer. If you have one let me know and I'll go more into how this should be handled.

Bottom line is - In a house that is up to 1 1/2 years old a breakdown of material is very unlikely. Improper handling or installation is very likely.


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Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
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Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Julie,


I don't know what part of FL you are in, but I'm in the SW part and we've been using PEX here for years, again, without issue. We have recirculating pumps installed, and regular old city water.

It just sounds to me like poor installation, and your builder should take care of it.


Originally Posted By: jbushart
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http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html





FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What is PEX?

PEX is cross-linked Polyethylene. Through one of several processes, links between polyethylene macromolecules are formed to create bridges between PE molecules (thus the term "cross-linked). This resulting molecule is more durable under temperature extremes, chemical attack, and resists creep deformation, making PEX an excellent material for hot water applications (up to 200? F).

How long has PEX been used?

PEX was developed in the 1960s. PEX tubing has been in use in many European countries for plumbing, radiant heating and snow melt applications since that time. PEX was introduced in the United States in the 1980s, and has seen significant growth in market demand and production.

What are recommended uses for PEX?

PEX 's flexibility and strength at temperatures ranging from below freezing up to 200 degrees Fahrenheit makes it an ideal piping material for hot and cold water plumbing systems, hydronic radiant heating systems, snow melting applications, and, even ice rinks and refrigeration warehouses.

Why is PEX an excellent piping material for plumbing?

PEX is ideally suited for potable water plumbing applications. It is flexible, making it easy to install and service. PEX is able to withstand the high and low temperatures found in plumbing and heating applications, and is highly resistant to chemicals found in the plumbing environment. Although not freeze proof, PEX also provides the homeowner with many useful benefits. Flexible systems are quieter than rigid piping. The smooth interior resists scale buildup and corrosion that can affect long term pipe flow characteristics. PEX is also very freeze- break resistant. Finally, PEX systems have attractive installation costs when compared with rigid materials. PEX is the best piping material for many plumbing applications, but not for outdoor or UV exposed applications.

How can I be sure that PEX is a safe product for plumbing?

PEX is manufactured and tested according to stringent national consensus standards: ASTM F 876 and F 877. Both the product manufacturer and independent third party testing agencies conduct routine quality control and quality assurance evaluations to insure the product meets ASTM and NSF Standards. Compliance with the standards ensures the end user of safety and quality. Additionally, PEX is included in all of the major model plumbing codes used in the United States and Canada, CSA, IAPMO, SBCCI, BOCA, ICBO, IPC and NSPC, and approved by HUD for hot and cold potable water plumbing use.

Where is PEX approved for use?

PEX is an approved material in all the current edition national model-plumbing codes; however, some jurisdictions using older versions of these codes may not have amended the code to include PEX tubing . Contact the local authority with jurisdiction over plumbing to verify the acceptance of PEX tubing for plumbing applications in your area.

Can PEX be used under the slab?

Yes. The flexibility of PEX allows it to be supplied in coils meaning installations under the slab can be made with a single, continuous length without the need for fittings under the slab. PEX is not affected by concrete, or chemicals in concrete (it is commonly encased in concrete for radiant floor heating). PEX, however, must be sleeved when penetrating a concrete slab.

Can PEX be used for underground cold-water service applications?

Yes. Although the high temperature resistance of PEX makes it particularly suitable for hot and cold interior plumbing applications, it also makes an excellent underground water service piping. It can be installed using the same fittings recommended for copper tube sized SDR-9 polyethylene tubing.

Can PEX be used for aboveground outdoor applications?

No. PEX is designed for indoor and buried applications only and is not recommended for outdoor, aboveground use. Short exposures to sunlight are permissible, not to exceed 30 - 60 days. When storing PEX, it must be stored under cover, shielded from direct sunlight.

Can PEX save me money?

Yes. PEX saves money in many ways. For the installer, PEX tubing is competitively priced. Installation of flexible systems is fast because of the easy handling nature of the tubing and because a PEX installation requires fewer directional fittings. Since most plumbing problems occur at joints, fewer fittings also reduce the chances for callbacks, saving the installer even more time. The homeowner saves in the cost of the installed system, fewer callbacks, and reduced utility costs when home-run manifold systems are utilized in conjunction with PEX.

Will PEX systems help save on utility bills?

Yes. Home run or manifold plumbing systems utilizing PEX tubing can substantially reduce water and energy consumption in a home. The home-run concept provides dedicated direct lines from the manifold to the fixtures, reducing the amount of water that must be purged from the lines to get hot water at the fixture. Direct lines can be sized to the fixture requirements, further reducing the amount of time to wait for hot water. Faster hot water delivery reduces water waste and the amount of times the water heater must cycle to supply hot water.

What is the expected performance of PEX water distribution systems?

PEX is designed and tested to perform as well or better than any other material approved for hot and cold-water distribution systems. For indoor plumbing applications, PEX is expected to perform as long as copper, CPVC or any other approved plumbing distribution materials.

What joining systems are available?

There are several methods of connecting PEX, all of which involve mechanical fittings. There are two approved standard specifications for PEX connections: ASTM F 1807 and ASTM F 1960. Both reference mechanical insert fittings. The crimp fittings specified in ASTM F1807 are the most widely used. Other fitting systems, including insert and outside diameter compression fittings, are also available. PEX cannot be joined by solvent cement or heat fusion methods.

Which manufacturing method for PEX is recommended for hot and cold potable water?

There are currently three methods for producing PEX tubing, the Engle or Peroxide method, the E-beam or radiation method and the Silane method. All three processes produce tubing cross-linked to varying degrees that result in a product acceptable for potable water distribution applications. All PEX that has been tested and certified for potable applications carries the mark(s) of nationally recognized third-party certification agencies such as NSF, IAPMO, ICBO-ES, Warnock Hersey or UL.

How long can PEX be exposed to sunlight?

PEX tubing is not intended for outdoor applications and must be stored in a covered environment not exposed to direct sunlight. Maximum UV exposure is no more than 60 days.

What are temperature limitations for PEX?

PEX tubing can be used up to 200? Fahrenheit for heating applications. For plumbing, PEX is limited to 180? F. Temperature limitations are always noted on the print line of the PEX tubing. Recommended 140 max for safety and conservation

How are PEX systems tested for leaks?

PEX plumbing and radiant heating systems can be pressure tested using either water or air to check for leaks. Follow manufacturer's instructions.

How soon after installation can you pressure test a PEX tubing installation?

PEX plumbing systems can generally be tested immediately after the installation is complete. There is no wait time for glue to dry or joint to cool off. Weather should be considered and manufacturer's instructions followed in cold weather.

Where is PEX available?

PEX is available through almost all plumbing wholesale distributors throughout the United States and Canada. Many retail building supply outlets also supply PEX piping and fittings. Piping and fittings are commonly available in 1/4" through 1" CTS (Copper Tube Size) with some manufacturers also supplying larger sizes up to 2." Because the wall-thickness is proportionate for each size, the pressure ratings are the same for all sizes.

What sizes, lengths and packaging options of PEX are available?

PEX is available in 1/4" through 1" CTS (Copper Tube Size) and is packaged in coils or 20' straight lengths. Some manufacturers tubing is color-coded for easy identification of hot and cold lines. Coil lengths generally run to a maximum of 1000' and are available in a variety of shorter lengths.

Is flexible PEX plumbed differently than rigid material plumbing systems?

Yes. The flexibility of PEX allows many directional changes to be made without fittings, but, PEX systems are sized in the same fashion as copper or CPVC plumbing systems. PEX piping is also used in high performance manifold plumbing systems that takes advantage of the flexibility and economical cost of PEX tubing.

What are manifold plumbing systems?

Manifold or home run plumbing systems are much like a breaker box for the electrical system in the home. The manifold provides a common location from which all the plumbing fixtures are supplied. Some high-end manifolds also feature fixture shut-off valves allowing the user to shut off the water to individual fixtures from one location. Others are semi-home run manifolds or termination manifolds, which may feed the plumbing requirements for a room or set of rooms and reduce the number of fittings required in the plumbing system.

How are PEX systems sized?

PEX systems are be sized just like other plumbing materials such as copper or CPVC when used in a branch-and-main installation. To take advantage of utility savings and system performance issues of branch-and-main systems, PEX can be sized in manifold systems to meet the specific demands of each fixture, reducing water and energy waste in the home.

Is the thermal expansion/contraction of PEX a problem?

No. While PEX expands more than other plumbing materials, directional changes made with the tubing and some slack in the tubing during installation accommodate the expansion and contraction of the system if properly installed.

Is PEX freeze-break resistant?

PEX piping is freeze damage resistant and can expand and contract as water freezes and thaws within the tubing. No tubing material is freeze-break proof, however, and PEX should be installed using the same locally-prescribed insulation requirements to prevent freezing of any plumbing system.

How do I thaw PEX lines?

When water freezes inside PEX tubing, it can be thawed using a hair dryer, warm wet rags or heat tape, taking care not to overheat the tubing beyond it's maximum recommended temperature.

Can PEX be joined with solvent cement?

No. PEX cannot be joined with solvent cement, or heat fusion. PEX is installed using only mechanical fittings either inserted in or around the tubing or by compression fittings.


Originally Posted By: bgentry
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WOW…Highly informative.


Thanks for the info.


Originally Posted By: Julie
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Hi


Here is the bad news. We have RTi Pex. I have gotten the run around. Everyone…is pointing the finger at everyone else (builder, plumber,distributor, Wirsboro)





UPONOR NORTH AMERICA STREAMLINES BUSINESS

Organization Concentrates on Wirsbo PEX Brand

Apple Valley, Minn., Oct. 27, 2004 ? Jim Bjork, executive vice president, Uponor North America, announced today the company will close RTI Piping Systems in the United States and Plasco PEX-b Manufacturing in Canada. Additionally, the Uponor Manufactured Structures and Uponor Ecoflex businesses will be consolidated into Uponor Wirsbo and Uponor Canada.

"The objective of this business initiative, which we plan to finalize in early 2005, is to focus on our leading brand, Wirsbo, and core technology, which is PEX-a tubing,? says Bjork.

The RTI and Plasco facilities located in Bellport, N.Y., and Langley, British Columbia, will close first quarter, 2005. The Manufactured Structures office in Elkhart, Ind. will relocate to the Uponor Wirsbo headquarters in Apple Valley, Minn. in early 2005. Uponor is working with employees during this transition by offering outplacement services and severance packages.

?Our actions are part of our global initiative to transform Uponor from a collection of independent brands and companies to a more unified organization," Bjork says.

He adds that discontinuing certain brands and closing selected facilities allows Uponor North America to streamline its organization and improve the overall operational effectiveness in response to a constantly changing marketplace.

"By making our organization stronger, more competitive and more profitable, we will be in an even better position to serve our customers," says Bjork.

The closing of Plasco and RTI will not impact current customers of Uponor Wirsbo systems. To ensure continuity of customer service, the Uponor sales teams will support RTI and Plasco installations currently under way in North America, and Uponor will honor existing RTI and Plasco warranties.

Uponor North America Inc. is a U.S. subsidiary of Uponor Corporation, listed on the Helsinki Stock Exchange and headquartered in Vantaa, Finland. Plasco, RTI and Manufactured Structures are North American operating units of Uponor.

Uponor Wirsbo and Uponor Canada are North America's leading manufacturer and provider of radiant floor heating and plastic plumbing systems featuring crosslinked polyethylene (PEX-a) tubing. Uponor North America and Uponor Wirsbo are headquartered in Apple Valley, Minn., a suburb of Minneapolis and St. Paul. Uponor Canada is located in Regina, Saskatchewan. Visit www.wirsbo.com or www.wirsbo.ca for more information.




Any comments?
Thanks!
Julie


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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.


Sounds like the parent company should still stand behind the RTI products, and the builder is attempting to address the problems ... even though there is a lot of finger pointing.

You may still wish to hire your own plumbing professional to check out things, and I understand companies like Buckeye Plumbing from your region understands some of the issues with the piping you described. There were also a number of other good suggestions posted.

Good luck with that, and keep us posted on how things turn out.


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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Julie Hogan
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http://www.skinrxclinic.com/original_plumbing_that_burst.htm


This is the link to all the photos. it took a long time for me to figure out how to get these to all of you.
Any comments?
Please advise. I would appreciate all of your opinions.

Thanks
Julie


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Julie

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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A littlle hard to see the fittings at the top of the pic but they look like acetal plastic fitting which were known to cause problems with PEX crimping. If they are not plastic they look white in the photo.


Pic #2
I have never seen these types of clamps for PEX before.

Pic #3
Yes there should be approx 1/8" of pipe exposed past the ring. There are two ring that I see that do not meet this.

If the guage show any ring as a No-Go, it should be cut out and replaced. Do not attempt to re-crimp the same ring.

Pic #4
It would have been better to have used a manifold. Fewer connections and it would have looked more professional as well

Shows the use of the black copper rings with the full circle crimp that was disscussed earlier. This is a good thing ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

The second line from the left comming out of the slab looks as though there is a bend at the coupluer connection. Bends should be make with either the pipe itself or a fitting with the desired bend cast in to it. Couplers are ment for straight connections. could be a potential weak spot.

Conclusion
Unfortunatly with the repair and lack of manifolds, You now have a lot more connention than there need to be oringially. Each one is a potential for a leak and looks unsightly and amaturish as well. I am glad to see the proper rings used and in light of you ordeal you may want to check each and ever ring with a guage yourself.


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Paul Hinsperger
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Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
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Originally Posted By: Julie Hogan
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Hi


Thaks for your time.


My husband and I cannot believe the bad work this plumber does.


We are having a problem finding a plumber that will work on this for us. So far, after 6 plumbers…all we have is 2 who want to re-pipe. I think we are going to have to. They have ruined the plumbing in the area I have the pictures of.


Would they have to run the plumbing through the ceiling.?
We have a 2 story. 4900 sq ft.
Hot water heater is in garage.

Please advise

Thanks
Julie


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Julie

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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It would be next to impossible to determine how a repipe would be routed without being on site. There are just too many factors. Make sure however that the new pipe is not exposed to sunlight like though a garage window and be aware that mice and rats do like to chew on plastic. As an example; don’t let it lay on the ground of a crawlspace. Instead staple it up to the underside of the joist or protect it with metal. You may not have any rodents now but you may in the future. A rat can chew right though a PEX pipe in one sitting.


Ask for approved manifolds to be used instead of multiple fittings.

Also, you might want to consider getting the stuff that is color coded (Blue for cold and Red for Hot). Its the same price anyway. Note that there is also more expensive red colored pipe which is gas impermeable that is only needed for stuff like radiant heat. You don't need that stuff for simple supply lines.


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Paul Hinsperger
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Originally Posted By: Julie Hogan
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We would want to re-pipe with CPVC, not the pex.


The PEX is a nightmare. I want ot OUT of my house. Plus, the last repair, ruined the one section. I don’t see how the 1/4" stub could ever be saved.


Thanks again

Any comments on C-PVC?????????????

Julie


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Julie

Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Pex is fine as long as it’s properly installed.


We have never had any problems at all with it but we always use the black rings installed with the proper crimping tool.


Looks like maybe someone was a Gennie Pig for some new type of clamping rings.

I have never seen those rings before.


Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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I would have to agree. PEX is a good product when installed properly. But Julie, if you use the same plumber to install your CPVC you will likely have they same results.


If you are going to do a repipe, perhaps the best thing to do is use a material (copper, PEX, CPVC) that is very common in your area. If you use a product that the plumbers in your area are not familiar with, you increase the chances that it will be installed wrong and you will have problems.


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Paul Hinsperger
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Originally Posted By: aslimack
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Julie,


If you are going to re-pipe, i would bite the bullet and go with copper. Track record is there for many decades. Screw the plastics. Who knows what you’ll find out in 20 yrs. The more chlorine that will be added to the water as the environment is abused more and more will have , who knows what kind of effect on the pipes. More chlorine + plastic pipes=??? in the future. That being said, the only non-copper i really see around my area is the PB in the manufactured homes, and a very occasional crap do it your self homeowner job. I don’t have to see alot of it to feel for you when i see your photos.


Adam, A Plus


Originally Posted By: Julie Hogan
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Thank you all so much.


W ewill defiantely use anotehr plumber.


Still trying to get one, though. No one is really Jumping on the repipe. They are really busy right now. It is Season in FL. Tons of Snow Birds here. Business is booming.


I think copper is the way to go. Yes. But, which Copper? Is K the best one? How woul I identify if it is the K?


This builders Plumber cannot get out of a a paper bag. He has been here 4 times in a roww. Still can't make the trickle leaks stop. The fittins are leaking now, and again. Not a rudh of water, just trickles.

They jack hammered into the slab yesterday. After going 8 inches down, guess what we found??? More silver fittings and splices!! Totally NOT the way Plumb Pex RTI says the product should be installed. Now the builders plumber wants to run some lines through my ceiling now (NOT!). The two lines under the slab with the splices/fittings are no good to use any more (his words).

I think we are done with this dumb as a rock plumber. Really.

Is Mr Rooter and also Roto Rooter a good company to use for re-pipe? We need a plumber SO BAD....please advise.
We are in Jupiter Fl

Thanks
Julie


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Julie

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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.



Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
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Originally Posted By: aslimack
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Julie,


Please document the heck out of all your findings with photos and notes. Lots of photos. You never know how much help they may provide down the road. Every step of the way! At least you may have a chance to re-coup some of your money.

Adam, A Plus


Originally Posted By: Julie Hogan
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Hi


Thanks Adam. Yes, we are documenting all of this unbelivable mess!
An engineer team from Uponer Worsbo is actually coming here from Minnensota )Their corp. office) to se some of these houses. I am sure their main goal is to determine who is wrong. The system PLUMB PEX has gone out of biz and uponer wirsbo is taking over their remaining warranties. So, I am sure they will be thrilled to see this amazing mess.
NOW...the plumber came here and put some black sleeves around everything and wants to pour back the concreete and get my drywall put back up.

We of course told him. NO> We want these engineers to see this mess.
We never had any sleeves before. Just the white pipe coming out of the slab with connestions/splices everywhere.

The pipes were wet again today. A slow leak. This guy cannot sem to fix it. He wanted to jack hammer alittle more. We told him no.

So, I will let you know what Uponer Wirsbo guys have to say (they are probably coming to FL for the Super Bowl...)

Thanks
Julie


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Julie