Pool fatality

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Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Quote:

Woman fatally shocked in pool By Daily News An Arleta woman died Saturday after an apparent electrocution in a swimming pool, officials said. Brian Humphrey, a spokesman for the Los Angeles City Fire Department, said firefighters called to a house in the 14000 block of Nordhoff Street in Arleta at 12:33 p.m. Saturday found the young woman with no pulse. She and her brother had been swimming in the pool when the woman, who appeared to be in her 20s, came in contact with a pool light and lost consciousness, witnesses said. When her brother touched her, he felt a sudden surge of electricity, Humphrey said. Paramedics tried to revive the woman and rushed her to Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Panorama City, where she was later pronounced dead, Humphrey said. Her brother complained of chest discomfort and was taken to the same hospital. Humphrey said firefighters identified some questionable electrical wiring around the home and pool and turned off the power. Members of the city's building department and the Los Angeles Police Department will conduct a more detailed investigation.

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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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A VERY GOOD REASON for low voltage pool lights.


Probably a 120 volt light and it probably was not bonded properly. Probably also before GFCI protection was required for those pool lights (over 15 volts) or GFCI was disconnected or defective.

Just a bunch of guesses because there was not much information there.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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That’s all I’m looking for - speculation (guesses). Had this system been inspected by an HI and then this happened There’s some serious liability. More than my coverage anyway

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Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

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Originally Posted By: tallen
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This is a HI’s worst nightmare.


If the light had been bonded correctly and a GFCI installed correctly this would not have happened.

How do you check for such safety hazards?

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I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

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Originally Posted By: tallen
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It sounds to me like the pool water was"hot" and when she touched the light she grounded herself. Hmmm, bonding good . Maybe a bad light caseing? Maybe something in the atached spa area? who knows.

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I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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jpope wrote:

That's all I'm looking for - speculation (guesses). Had this system been inspected by an HI and then this happened  There's some serious liability. More than my coverage anyway

Not sure how an inspector is supposed to inspect a submerged light and be held liable for it???

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Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

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Originally Posted By: jpope
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Kevin,


I'm looking for possible scenarios that could contribute to this type of hazard in hopes that I may be able to find indicators during an inspection.

If this were my daughter, you better believe I would be coming after the HI, the agent AND the previous owner.

In this particular case, there was evidence of "unprofessional workmanship." This was according to LAFD.

I inspected a home only two blocks from this one last month ON THE SAME STREET so it had me a bit anxious when I first heard the news.

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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

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Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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As an HI you should check the GFCI, be sure it turns off the light when tripped. If it doesn’t have GFCI protection, flag it.

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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Maybe I was misunderstood…I was just asking a question.


I’ve never been in a pool let alone inspect one.

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Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Greg Fretwell wrote:

As an HI you should check the GFCI, be sure it turns off the light when tripped. If it doesn't have GFCI protection, flag it.

GFCI is only required if over 15 volts. If you find a 120 volt underwater pool light, EVEN if it has a GFCI, flag it and call it out for converting to a low voltage light. GFCI protection can fail, as we frequently find out.

I seriously doubt that woman would be dead if the light was low voltage.

I also doubt the pool shell was properly bonded, or that the light was properly bonded. Don't know for sure, other than knowing that SOMETHING was not wired properly.

I have a tool I made just for checking pool bonding. Maybe I can get with Nick and we can get some made?  On the other hand, they are a bit bulky and, even my fourth generation of the tool is in need of improvement for production needs.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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A pool light should be grounded and bonded. You run a solid #8 from the forming shell to the steel, another #8 goes to the listed pool light J box where it ties to a home run equipment ground, going back to the panel. There is also another #12 in the lamp cord that goes to the J box.


If this failing light was properly wired, even before the GFCI requirement, it should have been boiling water, even if it didn't trip a breaker. The GFCI should have tripped for sure.
Maybe we need suplimental overcurrent protection, sized to the light, to insure it will trip on a fault. Something like a 6A quick blow fuse on a 500w light.

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Originally Posted By: rwashington
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Do all of you guys inspect pools? I have a pool co. inspector come and do my inspections. Pools are beyond my expertise and after this posting DEFINITELY beyond it!

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Richard W Washington


www.rwhomeinspections.com

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Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I think it is excessive to demand that all 120v pool lights be replaced. That could be a $500-$1000 pop for something that might be perfectly safe. You can also have the problem that a 12v light won’t work.

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Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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This sort of stuff goes beyond a home inspection. The bonding of luminaires is specified in the NEC. It is complex, and many times is buried. Inspection would need to be invasive, beyond the simple eyeball for the obvious.


Sometimes, pure ignorance comes into play. Even with family members.

My brother recently had a nice in ground pool installed. His lifelong buddies, all electricians, and two with licenses, wired the pool for him.

Memorial Day picnic at my bro's house. He complained that his friends never came back to wire the above-ground light poles. No problem. I'll have a look and hook 'em up.

I opened the Intermatic panel. No GFCIs installed. I went to the main panel to see if they installed a 2-pole 50-amp GFCI. Nope.

He's got flexible power cord, with twist locks. Each ate arounf 7' in length. No GFCIs on motors or pool heater. Get this... AFCIs on luminaires (2) submerged in the pool. Ground wires run out of the earth, sloppily bonded to a number of locations, unprotected from mechanical damage.

Problem is, that despite my warnings, my brother refuses to believe his buddies would do this to him. MY phone calls to them go unanswered.

The pool hasnt been inspected yet. There are a number of inspectin agencies to choose from. Here's the kicker... my brother's buddies tell him "Dont worry. Everything's fine. We'll have Skooz come over to inspect. He'll pass it, no problem. Bada-bing..."

Makes be friggin' furious.

My advice to big bro? Dont turn the lights on when anyone's in the pool. My kids didnt swim that day...

The point? Sometimes it's just plain ignorance on the part of the electrician, inspector, and homeowner.

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Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Greg Fretwell wrote:

I think it is excessive to demand that all 120v pool lights be replaced. That could be a $500-$1000 pop for something that might be perfectly safe. You can also have the problem that a 12v light won't work.

Actually, the cost is more likely to be $300-500, and if saving a life is not worth $500 ONE TIME CHARGE, what is it worth?

You are saying that a low voltage pool light is AS DANGEROUS as a 120 volt pool light? Are you out of your mind?

Sure, the 12 volt light might not work, but that can be fixed. The 120 volt light is more likely to kill someone, and you can't bring them back. At least, not that I am aware of.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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jfarsetta wrote:

My advice to big bro? Dont turn the lights on when anyone's in the pool. My kids didnt swim that day...

Joe,

Give new meaning to 'Over my dead body', doesn't it? 'Hey, big brother, YOU are NOT going to allow your family to swim in that pool ... ARE YOU? My kid will only swim in there over my dead body. And I'm serious, bro, maybe over your kids dead body.'

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Joe, you don’t have to put GFCIs on pool pump motors, that rule is only for skid pack spas. You do need GFCI on a light and receptacles within 20’ of the pool


As for the lights. I just bought some. A 12v light is $200 or so and the transformer is another $150 or so (internet prices, a pool store/contractor is a lot more). I assume you also want an electrician to hook all this up and that is at LEAST another $150, more like $200 depending on how much conduit needs to be reworked to cut the transformer in. If you have 2 lights, double that. If it is more than 30 feet or so from the transformer the 12v won't work. Too much voltage drop. 300w is about max for a 12v light. 120v go to 500w.
That is why most commercial pools have 120v lights. They have minimum illumination rules.
Fiber optic is safer than 12v but most people are not going to spend that much money either.
The simple fact is most of these electrocutions are from improperly installed lights.

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Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Greg,


My understanding is that GFCIs are indeed required, if the motors are connected via flexible cords with twist locks. I also believe they can't be longer than 3'. Motors connected vis conduit or greenfield are exempt.

Now, since I am decidedly NOT a code quoting guy... someone either please correct me, or tell me if i'm right.

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Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

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Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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GFCI’s are not required on pool motors or low voltage lights (I belive 15 volts) in this area. The pool pump, heater and screen cage must be bonded.


I don't believe that 120 volt pool lights have been allowed in this area for quite some time. I haven't seen any, even on pools up to 35 years old.

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Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Blaine,


Please read NEC 680-6, sections (a) 1, and (d). They pretty much spell out the requirement.

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Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."