Originally Posted By: srowe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Kevin,
From what i can see, it looks like the nails were overdriven (through the shingle) as the shingles don't appear torn or ripped (unless I can't see that). Looks like installation error to me but always hard to tell from photos.
Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi to all,
Kevin, if the shingles were not installed in accordance with the manufacturers specifications then the shingle warranty would be void and the installer would have to make repairs/replace at his expense.
I don't see how these could have been installed to the manufacturers specifications, I dont see how the builder would have any defense.
Originally Posted By: mlong This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
kmcmahon wrote:
Got called out to do a roof inspection. Roof is approx. 5 years old. Homeowner noticed that the shingles were sliding down in sections.
Builder states that he nailed higher on the shingle than normal because he had cracking problems and that the problem was caused by the shingle not sealing properly and the winds damaged the shingles....this has obviously caused the nail to miss or just barely hit the shingle underneath. So instead of 8 nails per shingle (4 from the original and the 4 from the shingle on top) there were only 4 and wind or gravity has taken care of the rest.
These appear to be Certainteed Horizon laminated shingles (don't hold me to that!)
Anyway, just needed your opinion on the situation. This will obviously go to court.
The pics are large, but I left them that way so you can see better what's happening.
I've pretty much made my determination, but sometimes its good to get an educated opinion. Any insight is helpful. Also if anyone has any good graphics on nailing patterns, it would be helpful.
Kevin,
There seem to be several issues here. First of all, it does look as if the roofer nailed higher up on the shingle than is standard practice. Typically, the nails/staples would be approximately 1 1/2" above the slit, about where the sealant is located.
Second, if the roofer suspected that the shingles weren't going to seal, it makes no sense to nail higher, you should nail lower. But, to the cruz of the matter, why did the roofer suspect that the shingles weren't going to seal properly when he was installing them? Did he know in advance that there was a problem with these particular shingles? If the shingles had sealed properly, the fact that he nailed a little higher than normal, may not have been a problem. So, besides his less than ideal installation, could there actually be a problem with the shingles?
The way the nails have pulled through, its also possible that the nailing was done with too much force and almost drove the nails through the shingles, although that could have occurred because of the stress on the shingle from it not sealing. Also, from the way I'm seeing the second photo, I'm not seeing even four nails across the shingle, I'm only seeing one on the end. Did he use at least put four nails per shingle? If not, then he didn't use enough nails.
It looks as if there could be a combination of less than ideal installation along with a possible shingle defect.
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The reason for the nails being placed higher (according to the builder) was that the shingles were cracking.
He came up with the sealing issue to CHA, or so it seems to me. But that’s not for me to determine. The roof is sealed fine now, he says it just didn’t seal before the wind damaged the roof soon after installation.
IMO there are two factors here that led to this problem. Improper nailing locations and possibly driving the nail heads too far. If indeed the shingles hadn’t had time to seal properly, then it should have been his responsibility to seal them with roof cement if needed.
I cannot make the assumption regarding the sealant though. I just have to go with the evidence in front of me at the time of the inspection.
(yes, there were 4 nails per shingle) Certainteed states that nails are to be 1" from each end and 12" from each end. In one of the pics you can see the nails start at about 3" from the end. This wasn't in every case but a few I saw.
Thank you for your insights, they are helpful....keep em coming. 
Originally Posted By: jschwartz1 This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin:
I agree with everything posted so far. In addition I would ask to see the permit and the name if the building official that signed off on this poorly installed job. The owner, I believe, has the city and the roofer on the hook.
It may wind up in court, but I know the homeowner will win!
Originally Posted By: srowe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
I'm no lawyer, but in WI the builder only has to warranty his work for defects for one year. This is year 5.
That is what some builders state here in NE Florida but in actuality
Quote:
2004 Florida Statute Chapter 95.11 states that consumers have four years for readily observable defects and 15 years for latent defects, concealed that the average owner could not, or would not detect.
As far as meeting the 4/15 year criteria would be up to a judge or jury I guess.
I would definitely have your customer research this and seek the advice of an attorney if the contractor doesn't stand by his work.
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
What kind of idiot would put up shingles that were cracking? I guess the answer is in my question.
In Ohio and many other states the window of opportunity to file suit ends two years after the discovery of the problem. I'll assume that would have been a couple of days, maybe a week ago.
Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin 1 more thought whattime of year were the shingles installed, what was the median temperature, and how did that relate to the manufacturers installation instructions.
I had a job in NewEngland that had been installed in Dec, in temps that were well below the manufactures guidelines and hat in itself led to failures, although not of this type.
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I did pose the questions to the homeowner. He said that he looked at the home on a July 4th weekend, and there was no roof installed…they closed at the end of August. So it wasn’t a cold atmosphere for installation of the roof.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
srowe wrote:
From what i can see, it looks like the nails were overdriven (through the shingle) as the shingles don't appear torn or ripped (unless I can't see that).
I think this is the right call, coupled with (what appears to be) the wrong fasteners.
What size heads do the nails have? They look too small to me.
Pneumatic installation at the improper setting will drive right through the shingles.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Installation error. . .
The packaging will tell you what the temperature of the shingle must be during installation as well. Cold temps require heating of the shingle prior to installation. . .
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am guessing this is a horizon certainteed shingle…I have no way of knowing for sure as I’m no expert on shingle design types. Certainteed mfg specs have a range of I believe 55 to 84 degrees installation temps.
Originally Posted By: wcottrell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin,
I did an inspection for a friend 5 years ago, and told him at that time 1/2 way through the roofing application that the contractor was not installing the shingles by the manufactuers guidelines. Anyway it required the factory rep 4 visits before he could convince the contractor to the correct nailing pattern as well as Judge Clark. Get the factory guys involved, they want happy users.
Originally Posted By: dedwards This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin,
Just so I can add my two cents (for what it’s worth). I believe the shingles were installed improperly for all the already stated reasons but by looking at the very first picture he (the roofer) has numerous slits all lined up w/o any kind of offset. In other words the gap between the tabs should not fall directly on top of the gap for the shingles in the lower course. This makes for poor roof integrity and the possibility for leaking is greatly increased. Sounds to me like this roofer did not know what he or his crew was doing. If it is anything like what has been going on in Florida since last years hurricanes, the contractors drop off a crew of guys and tells them to put a roof on a house without any adult supervision or even someone on site that can speak English. Had a roofer call me to go inspect one the roofs his crew put on a house because the neighbors told the prospective buyer that the crew had installed the roofing felt vertically. Needless to say I turned down his job and told him he would have to find someone else, and that I was not about to accept the responsibility for a crappy job. He sounded panicky and wanted to know if I knew someone who would be willing to do that.!
Originally Posted By: dedwards This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
And Oh yeah, that story about the shingles cracking, that sounds like a sled load of BS. He is tap dancing all over the truth. As someone already said, if they were cracking he should not have installed them in the first place.