Service Entrance Connections

Originally Posted By: Jerry Ramsey
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Need some input please. The attached photos are of an outside electrical panel made by Westinghouse. This is a service lateral with the utility feed on the left side of the box. The exit cable on the right feeds a distribution panel on the inside of the house. My question is this: The neutral on the left has to be somehow connected to the neutral/grounding setup on the right, which means that there is some kind of cross panel connection behind the breaker…am I correct?


I would appreciate any input you can provide. Thanks.

Jerry


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/104-0436_IMG.JPG ]
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/104-0437_IMG.JPG ]


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


This is a good call. The above installation is or was performed by a less than qualified electrician.

There is more than one violation here. Just defer this to a licensed electrician.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Jerry Ramsey
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Thanks Mike. I’m sheepish to say the least, as this is my house! I came across it while performing a practice inspection.


Jerry


![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif



If the service was inspected and you have occupied the house why would this be a question?

Just want to try to understand what you meant?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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That flat black strap behind the guts in the service disconnect box must be a bar connecting the two terminals … otherwise the neutral on the right going to the panel inside would be connected to nothing (and no 120V power).


It looks like the is a neutral-ground connection in that service box (where it belongs). There appears to be a bare stranded wire (loose) connected to the terminal bar on the right, which I suspect is the bond/ground wire running to the panel inside. It also looks like there is a solid copper ground wire connected to the terminal bar on the right, which I suspect is the ground wire running to the water main and/or earth rods (grounding electrode).

Note that with that type of setup the neutral and ground at the panel inside must be isolated (floating neutral).


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


The responses that you got are from, may I say, from three so-called ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) experts.

Always verify what you read here.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Mike Parks wrote:
There is more than one violation here. Just defer this to a licensed electrician.

That bond/ground wire is a bit funky, but what else are you seeing there Mike?

(P.S. Hmmmmm ... did ya mean to say electrical "defect" and not "violation")


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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I agree with Robert. It surely does look like the neutral is connected to the right place from the meter can and the main disconnect or first point of disconnection is properly bonded to the can. The neutral wire on the right is going to the subpanel and the braid just above that wire is the egc which hopefully is going to a bar isolated from the neutral in the subpanel, or as Rob put it…a floating neutral at the sub. Actually I see nothing wrong with this setup other than it’s a bit old…but just cuz somethin is old doesn’t mean it is no good. This info comes from a so called expert! icon_rolleyes.gif


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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After further investigation though I noticed there is only one…#6 bare copper on the neutral buss. Is this the water bond or the earth ground? Hard to say what it is but it surely looks like one or the other is missing. Perhaps that wire goes to a water pipe, but more so perhaps it is just a hardship ground. If ya plan on keeping this setup Jerry, have a qualified electrician check it for both earth grounding and water bond.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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IMHO just having a single solid earth grounding wire (GEC) is not a big deal that requires calling in a sparky for repair/evaluation for an existing home.


That single GEC could be run to a metal water main without the supplementary ground rods ... that was not always required by model codes. It could also be run to ground rods as the primary means of service grounding if there is a plastic water service pipe which would meet current model codes.

"Dennis" ... when are ya gonna come out of the closet as to who ya really are. I am very familiar with the old posts from the real Dennis and they dont match your style or wording.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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I see no violations, and I too am one of those “so called experts”. Step up Mike, what do you see?



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I am still curious as to what you are seeing wrong there too Mike



Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Rob,


I agree. I find it hard to believe its the "old" Dennis. His style and demeanor are much different. Good call..

As to the question, I assume that the connecting conduit between the meter pan and main disconnect is plastic. The neutral conductors appear to be bonded to the panel casing, so that's good. The ground wire is a bit thin, and I hope that it is not the sole ground source for the service. Also, I question the position/exit of this ground wire. Does it also go to the subpanel?

Assuming that the obvious is just that, the feds to the sub appear to be corrent, in the quantity of conductors for a bonded ground and floating neutral in the sub panel.

My only question pertains to the connectinc conduit (metallic or non-metallic, and the gauge of the ground. Me thinks the ground wire is too small. Also, I assume that the enclosure is rated for outdoor use!


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Is it a earth ground or a water bond? Granted, at the time this panel was constructed it met the code at the time, if it goes to a water pipe. But lets say it is going to a water pipe in the house and somewhere along the way of the copper piping the homeowner (either present or past), had some of the piping removed due to a leak or whatever, and plastic was put in it’s place. Does this then allow for good bonding? If this wire is in fact going to a water line in the house, it has to be within 5’ from where the water enters the house. Then there is no question as to whether there is a continuous path for it or not. The hot cold and gas lines on the h2o tank should also be bonded together. Also a water bond is not sufficeint protection if this house should sustain a lighting strike. The code requires a ground rod for today’s standards. The ground rod is connected to the neutral buss as is the water bond and it must be placed at the main. If I were to change this panel out, then both a earth ground and water bond would be required. This panel is “grandfathered” in for most cases. It was my only thought that for safety reasons it should be inspected for the proper grounding and bonding in today’s standards.


You could go around and ground every receptacle in your house but if there is no real path to ground, do you in fact have grounded receptacles?

All that is visible in the pics is a single #6 piece of bare copper, typically used for both grounding or bonding. As a sparky I would question this, as a HI I reckon there would not be a need to question it. #6 is sufficeint for a 100 amp service as well. For a 200 amp service I would jump to at least a #4.

Just trying to be helpful here. I'm available to check your panel out at $104 the first hour and $69 a hour after that ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)



By the way Robert and Joe.......this is the same ole Dennis. Just different username. I don't really see a difference in me either I still hold the same respect for you guys as I always have, and I still look at things as a sparky would. I am still interested in HI work, but I have taken another avenue recently by pursuing my electrical safety inspector's license from the state. I apologize if I might appear different in some way but I am the same guy who used to post here in the past.


Originally Posted By: Jerry Ramsey
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Guys,


I've been out of town and therefore slow getting back to you. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me figure this out.

As information, the house is on a well with plastic piping. I think the copper ground is either a Ufer setup or is going electrode rods and I simply can't find the connection. I think that there has to be a strap behind the neutrals as everything is functioning properly.

I could use a little further education here. My question is: When using a Sure Test circuit analyzer on the inside receptacles, I get a reading that everything is ok, including the ground. Does this merely indicate that the grounding conductor is connected back to the neutral at the main panel, or does it also mean that the main panel is grounded in some form, shape, or fashion? Bottom line, exactly what does it mean?

Thanks for your input...I'm learning a ton of stuff from you guys.

Jerry

![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jerry,


The sure test is simply letting you know that the wire is present on the receptacle and it gives you a reading of the impedance of that wire back to the panel. It does not tell you whether or not the grounding wire and ground rod are present at the panel.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: Jerry Ramsey
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Thanks Joe.


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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To ALL


This statement: "The responses that you got are from, may I say, from three so-called experts", was meant to be a compliment. IT WAS VERY poorly written on my part.

I understand why this would rub EVERYONE wrong.

Back to the subject, there is no bussing on the conduits entering the box.

Mike P.

PS Thank you for your polite responses to my unintentional insult.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Mike Parks wrote:
Back to the subject, there is no bussing on the conduits entering the box.


What????


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City