Originally Posted By: berby This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I just can’t figure out how to come of with service panel amps. Can anyone help me or send me some info. If the service is 240v and the main disconnect is 60amp. what is the service panel amp?
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Barron,
EDITED to be short and sweet...lol......
Place 200A on the report....note the issues of the panel as discussed below and it indeed seems to be a split buss......
on your next image.....try to give us a picture of the whole panel in the frame rather than just top half or bottom and I am sure we can assit you.
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Barron,
Ok...I am gonna help you out here......the panel you are looking as is also a Main Lug panel which means their has to be a main disconnect near the actual meter cab or as stated a split buss panel....can you say ZINCO or FP. ( I can hear inspectors SQINT now when i said FP )
The service cable coming into this panel is a 4/0 AL which can handle 200 Amps......so chances are it is a 200A panel....ignore the break labeled main because it is not the main but more the lower half of the split buss and is the main for the GL and A loads...
Now......as a speciality for electrical I would tell them they need to have an electrician come and apply NOAX to the AL connections in the panel as they look awful ( NOAX is not required but mandated in most VA areas ).......increased resistance causes additional heat and well it is just a good safety thing...
Check for that disconnect and I am sure you will find one. That should have the AMPS listed on the main breaker at the disconnect.
Hope this helps....Man I cant spell tonight.......edit..edit..edit
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
ikage,
To be totally honest with you I can't verify it is a split anything from the picture but I can comment on the split buss theory and the 6 switch ( disconnect rule )
We can dig deeper in this for barron but I would like him to post the location of the meter cab in relation to this panel shown.
Could it be a split buss ( which we do not work with at all here in VA much )....I guess it is possible as I cant actually see the buss layout in the picture..I see it but cant read it....
The idea of the 6 disconnect in ONE enclosure lends to the confussion......You should be able to see the layout of the buss from the top 60A breaker to see its buss layout and where it feeds.....I cant see it from the picture...but I will try to look again.
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
lkage,
The theory behind the split buss is much like the theory behind a "feed Through Panel " used in trailers. ( the difference is the feed through is still protected by a main )
I sure hope it is not a split buss because they are nasty....and hardly needed today in normal home wiring.
You just dont see it much at all today in homes because basically what they are trying to do it feed the higher drawing items first and then letting the breaker feeding the lower half run the general lighting and applicance circuits...
is it legal....yes...sad to say...lol...it is kinda like the old FUSE panels where you have a dryer and range pull out....and the round fuses at the bottom...it complies to the 6 rule.
The lines are protected by 6 disconnects......thus is is compliant but again this should be on that layout on the panel but I cant read it....the old ZINCO panels used to do that.....nasty stuff.....but again split busses are fine.....but I dont think you will find it on the market today...lol
The only violation here if it WAS a split buss is if it is a split buss and they take out the double poles and place in single poles....this wont happen but make sure it does not happen......but again I do not know if that is a split buss or not.
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
He can have the homeowner throw the MAIN labeled one and it should cut off the bottom portion if it is a main…it will kill power to the lower and then you will know…without a doubt but dont YOU do it.
Now show me a picture of the lower half of this panel.......I am now think it very well may be a split buss.......but it is a 200A panel...and if a split buss a 60A for General Lighting and Appliance......
I do not like assuming which is why I said look for a disconnect but in review of the image it looks like it may be the old style split buss....is it possible to post a picture of the lower half as well...lol...
Regardless...still a 200A panel for your report.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok…I will tell you the problem with split buss system that make electrical inspectors heads spin…The potential for wrongful chance is always present.
Those breakers under the 6 disconnect rule have the ability to be removed and replaced with single breakers...( ignore the fact they are for the range, ac and so on.....just go with me. If the top buss had 6 2-pole breakers as disconnects which is the case here....you have a potential of 10 additonal single pole breakers......plus the main feeding the lower portion....well above the 6 disconnect rule and now a panel with no main breaker protection on the upper half.
Now.....lets say the guy puts a sub-panel to the side of this....now moves his range, ac and so on over to that sub that is fed from a breaker in the place where the AC is not connected.......now you have slots for the home owner to add many more single circuits and thus going OVER the 6 disconnect rule.........as stated above.
Doug...great obervation...lol.....even looks triple tapped ...lol I would obviously note that as well....
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Originally Posted By: brian winkle This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Gentlemen if you zoom in on the label you will see the diagram indicating that this is indeed a split bus panel. They are very common here in the southwest on homes from the seventies and eighties. Also, FPE made several versions.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
i tried that but could not get a clear picture of it…in my posts as I determined it is that ( a split buss ) but hate to assume which is why I like FULL pictures…
This also should be on the panel legacy chart as you stated....
Their are so many other issues in that image where do you start...dont zoom in too much or your head may explode...lol..
Thanks Bud........
Barron.....List 200A on your inspection and you are fine...the panel is legal as stated and fine......but you also need to note the other issues in the panel in your observation.....
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
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Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Barron,
Great...that confirms what we know. I always want HI's to confirm this when their is lack of evidence as I went on one call one day and the owners never knew they had a disconnect outside next to the meter cab to turn off the power.....they were shocked that they did not notice it in nearly 15 years of living in the house.
Yes, you have a split buss then....I believe someone with better eyes than me saw this on the panel label as well but since only the top portion of the panel was listed I wanted you to make sure it was not a main lug panel......well it is and it aint in a way.....but lets not go their...lol
You will just need to note it is a 200A panel on your report...one dead giveaway is the 4/0 TWH feeding the panel...it is rated at 200A.
But most certainly list the NOAX thing....and when breakers are doubled up and in the end make sure you list that the panel needs to be reviewed in your opinion by a licensed electrician.
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
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Originally Posted By: berby This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Paul
I did put the other concerns in my report. I just had trouble with the amps. I guess you wouldn't have a pic of that outside disconnect, 
Originally Posted By: cbuell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am not sure I understand the drift about no anti-oxidant? It clearly shows in the second picture-----may not be plastered all over the place—but it is there.
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well charles…you may call me blind if you wish but I do not see it applied in the manner I would. Also the panel is 33 years old as stared…do you really think their is NOAX in that panel…
Look CLOSE....looks more like CRUST to me than NOAX......hey I am not their fella....can only state what I see from a picture and what I dont see.....you have better eyes than me but I dont see NOAX.....
Anyway......just a observation...
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
