Originally Posted By: bnelson
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Can someone please site the NEC code reference requiring a cover on the main service panel? I can’t find it in my Code Check tablet. Thanks!
Can someone please site the NEC code reference requiring a cover on the main service panel? I can’t find it in my Code Check tablet. Thanks!
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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110.3(B) Installation and Use
Now, for more clarification, please provide more information.
Is it outdoors? Indoors? The outer cover? The inner dead front cover?
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: bnelson
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/P1003443.jpg ]
Originally Posted By: jpope
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Jerry,
Aren't you going to tell him to rip out that Zinsco panel? 
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: bnelson
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Hi Jerry,
I found this write-up on Zinsco on another forum.
?Zinsco panels are considered problematic by industry professionals. JPI recommends a complete evaluation of the systems' integrity and performance by a qualified, licensed, electricial contractor.?
Regardless of condition, is that your standard verbiage?
Thx
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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You may want to change the JPI part!
–
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC
Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector
Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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The panelboard (circuit breakers) is installed in a metal cabinet. This enclosure is designed for surface mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame, mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can be hung.
–
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| jpope wrote: |
| Jerry,
Aren't you going to tell him to rip out that Zinsco panel?  |
Yeah, but I had to get back to the forum to read it first. Hear that? Replace that Zinsco panel! 
My two brothers live in Port Charlotte, one on the bay and the other on a boat in the bay, so I've been trying to reach them. Last time I heard from them, my younger brother was talking to my sister (who lives in Gainesville) and he and his wife were huddling up in the hallway with broken windows and hurricane winds and rain blowing through the house. Now, was that my sister exaggerating or was the what was said, I don't know, but he called her about an hour ago and was saying something about broken windows and water damage, then he lost cell phone connection. I'm trying to find out if I need to take our 36' camper over there for them to live in for the next couple of weeks or so.
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
| bnelson wrote: |
| Hi Jerry,
I found this write-up on Zinsco on another forum. ?Zinsco panels are considered problematic by industry professionals. JPI recommends a complete evaluation of the systems' integrity and performance by a qualified, licensed, electricial contractor.? Regardless of condition, is that your standard verbiage? Thx |
Brandon, Kevin,
That is not I. I'm not JPI. Beside, I do not waffle on that.
This would be mine. ?THIS PANEL IS A ZINSCO (SYLVANIA / ZINSCO); THESE HAVE BECOME KNOWN TO BE PROBLEMATIC AND ARE NO LONGER MADE, IN PART BECAUSE OF THOSE PROBLEMS; THESE PANELS ARE OBSOLETE AND ARE IN NEED OF REPLACEMENT; WE RECOMMEND REPLACING WITH A PANEL WHICH IS STILL BEING MADE (NOT OBSOLETE); "
Don't say 'It's bad", then say "have someone else look at it". Good grief.
Regardless of how many times it's looked at, or by whom, it is still old, obsolete, and they are known to be problematic. I don't want to leave a door open for some bozo electrician (sorry, Dennis, but if an electrician says 'Leave it, it's okay', they ARE a bozo) to say "it's okay". They will do try to do that without me leaving the door ajar.
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Yes Jerry, I know…JPI is Jeff Pope Inspections
–
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC
Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector
Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
| bnelson wrote: |
| Hi Jerry,
I found this write-up on Zinsco on another forum. ?Zinsco panels are considered problematic by industry professionals. JPI recommends a complete evaluation of the systems' integrity and performance by a qualified, licensed, electrical contractor.? Regardless of condition, is that your standard verbiage? Thx |
That's mine!  You must have taken that off the ITA board That was some time ago but I still write them up regardless of condition. I'm just a bit more firm than I was back then
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Thanks, I should have noticed that.
Jeffrey Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
Right there on every post.
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
–
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
| Quote: |
| Can someone please site the NEC code reference requiring a cover on the main service panel? I can't find it in my Code Check tablet. Thanks! |
| Quote: |
| The panel was inside the dining room, and had a "cabinet door" cover which allowed easy access to the real hot stuff inside. Here's a picture: |
| jtedesco wrote: |
| The panelboard (circuit breakers) is installed in a metal cabinet. This enclosure is designed for surface mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame, mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can be hung. |
And if that door cannot be opened to at least 90 degrees it can be considered as a safety issue.
If the statement made by "Bozo" is based upon an opinion with some experience in the field as an installer, and by a licensed "Bozo", let the report rest on the "Bozo's" shoulders!
 
--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
So after all that, what you’re saying is that it is allowed as long as the door opens at least 90 degrees?
–
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC
Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Kevin,
Must have a metal enclosure.
Must have a metal cover.
Can have something else applied to that cover, but that 'something else' cannot inhibit the metal cover from opening 90 degrees.
I doubt you could get a wood cabinet door which would cover the entire panel cover (the panel cover door does not cover the entire panel cover) and still open 90 degrees.
Joe T.,
"If the statement made by "Bozo" is based upon an opinion with some experience in the field as an installer, and by a licensed "Bozo", let the report rest on the "Bozo's" shoulders! "
Yes, but should we just let our client suffer with that, or let them know that they really should consider changing it for their own good, "And, by the way, don't use that electrician, I would want someone who has my best interests at heart, as they will most likely take the time and use the care to do it right, and safer."
"There is NO WAY that can cause a fire." Yeah, right.
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Charles Palmieri
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110.27 Guarding of Live Parts.
(A) Live Parts Guarded Against Accidental Contact. Except as elsewhere required or permitted by this Code, live parts of electrical equipment operating at 50 volts or more shall be guarded against accidental contact by approved enclosures or by any of the following means:
If the problem is exposed live parts this is a good article to cite. As mentioned 110.3 (B) is a catch 22 that reinforces the manufactures listing and instructions, I doubt a manufacture will advocate the use of their components in a manner that exposes life and property to energized parts of an installation
just a thought
Charlie
Originally Posted By: psabados
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Further thoughts on the matter
1. It is no longer carrying its UL listing with the cover removed or any other label attached to it.
2. Most insurance companies, if they should their typical surface inspection, would not view this as acceptable and most likely would not write a policy of the dwelling. More and more carriers are sending agents into the field to verify basic requirements.
3. How would you like to find one of your kids or grandchildren playing with the door or looking at all of the pretty colors and neat looking stuff.
Paul
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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| bnelson wrote: |
| Can someone please site the NEC code reference requiring a cover on the main service panel? |
Careful there ... but you know that already ... lol. As far as a model code reference (as a "guide"), I believe Charles hit the nail on the head with his post ... IRC E3304.8 has the same basic requirement.
Also notice the part about "approved enclosures" ... means acceptable to the AHJ ...  ... They have the authority under the NEC to "approve" non-listed equipment, but it's not likely/common. So just because it's not listed doesn't mean it's automatically a "violation".
Just another reason why an HI should not be quoting codes, or god forbid calling anything a "code violation" ...
Just my 2-nickels
--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Along with 110.27 I would add 408.18
| Quote: |
| 408.18 Enclosure.
Panelboards shall be mounted in cabinets, cutout boxes, or enclosures designed for the purpose and shall be dead-front. |
The NEC requires panels to be of dead front construction which in turn makes it part of the UL listing requirements.
Leaving the cover off would be a listing violation 110.3(B).
--
Bob (AKA iwire)
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