What's the call here?

Originally Posted By: jpope
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My gut says this is okay, but I could use some reassurance or correction.


This panel is listed for "indoor" use only. It is mounted on the exterior of the garage, inside an "outdoor" listed enclosure.

Is this allowed? Please provide a reference if you feel that it is improper. . .

![](upload://n9Olfg1fu5gU3MXcHuFkXAkaR1.jpeg)

![](upload://lesjzcHBwXQ816uuoDbP6yJUhRV.jpeg)




--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
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When I saw the first two pictures, it was a no brainer. The third picture has now placed this panel Indoors, not exposed to the elements. I vote that this setup is OK.



Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI


Viking Construction Services Inc.

Originally Posted By: mgault
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I would lean toward agreement. Enclosed in an “outdoor” rated enclosure kinda makes it “indoor” from the weather…


But then I'm from South Cackalacky! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

You could always suggest "evaluation for proper installation (in this case an Indoor panel used outdoors)".

I'd also call the local county Electrical Code and Building Code Interpreter (i.e. AHJ)...

Joe T? Gerry?


--
-Mike
A to Z Home Inspections, LLC

www.atozhomeinspections.net

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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In an odd situation like that, I doubt you could find any definitive code.


Jeff... as it appears that it's been there for a while, I suspect that your "gut feeling" includes an observation that the inerior of the panel isn't suffering from the location. Although we probably rely on "code" with electricty more than any other area, there will likely still be those few "gray area judgement calls" on safety and function. It is part of what we get paid for. In this case, as long as you feel it's a safe installation and is being adequately protected from the elements, I'd go with your gut.


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Nope. No other apparent deficiencies. . .



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Jeff,


You have a very experienced and knowledgable gut. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) I, for one, would trust any judgement call you made.


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: mgault
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jpope wrote:
Nope. No other apparent deficiencies. . .


Sounds like it's good to go, I second Richard's trust in your Gut! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
-Mike
A to Z Home Inspections, LLC

www.atozhomeinspections.net

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Quote:
See ARTICLE 312 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures

312.1 Scope.

This article covers the installation and construction specifications of cabinets, cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.

I. Installation

312.2 Damp, Wet, or Hazardous (Classified) Locations.

(A) Damp and Wet Locations..........................

See Definitions Location, Damp, Wet



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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And your point would be what Joe?



Bob Badger


Electrical Construction & Maintenance


Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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This looks a a single unit, comprised of two separate doors. The thing I keep thinking is that it is clearly marked “for indoor use”. The outer door is hinged at the top so one could “assume” it was rated for outdoor use but it does not say that on the label. I hate it when someone comes along and makes a product like this that screws up the whole guidelines thingie and causes one to doubt what they know is right. It is almost a 50/50 call and like a lot of calls you could probably get 10 different opinions from 10 people.


Originally Posted By: lkage
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jtedesco wrote:
Quote:
See ARTICLE 312 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures

312.1 Scope.

This article covers the installation and construction specifications of cabinets, cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.

I. Installation

312.2 Damp, Wet, or Hazardous (Classified) Locations.

(A) Damp and Wet Locations..........................

See Definitions Location, Damp, Wet


Joe, I would really appreciate it if you could go beyond pasting code refereces and say it the way you see it. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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dedwards wrote:
This looks a a single unit, comprised of two separate doors.


From an electricians perspective this looks like an outdoor (Type 3R) panel that went bad and someone pulled out the guts and installed a dry location (Type 1) panel inside the old 3R enclosure.

IMO this could possibly be done code compliantly.

However I am very curious as to how the wiring was brought into the panel.

I would suggest having this checked into by a licensed electrical contractor.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: lkage
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thanks, Bob.


Appreciate your point of view. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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Bob,


That was my first thought too until I read on the door label “combination cover”. I personally have never run across one of these but every time I think I’ve seen just about everything someone pulls out something that screws that theory up. The way the two doors are set up would aggrevate the crap out of me. I can see me holding the outside door up with my pointy head while trying to remove the interior dead cover (while ants and gnats chew on me).


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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dedwards wrote:
Bob,
That was my first thought too until I read on the door label "combination cover".


A "combination cover" means the same cover is OK for flush mount or surface mount panels. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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bbadger wrote:
And your point would be what Joe?
![icon_surprised.gif](upload://57CELbNgOav4I8DdysEp4jSUiyx.gif)

Bob

My point would be to give a reference to a rule that covers the cabinet and its location which has been described by Jeff as damp. The panelboard is located in the cabinet and he can evaluate the condition of the equipment.

If there are any signs of rust or deterioration Jeff would be wise by noting that condition.

I have also added another thought for Home Inspectors to think about when they make this type of inspection.

It seems to me that we all learn something from each other, even when we only get to see a small image posted here.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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Bob,


AH, sooooo. Thanks for the clarification. Appreciate you guys and your inputs here.


Originally Posted By: lkage
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lkage wrote:
jtedesco wrote:
Quote:
See ARTICLE 312 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures

312.1 Scope.

This article covers the installation and construction specifications of cabinets, cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.

I. Installation

312.2 Damp, Wet, or Hazardous (Classified) Locations.

(A) Damp and Wet Locations..........................

See Definitions Location, Damp, Wet




Joe, I would really appreciate it if you could go beyond pasting code references and say it the way you see it. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)



I was a little abrupt. My apologies to Joe.

What I appreciate, along with the code references, is the opinion of those with more knowledge about a specific situation posted here on the board. What would you do in the situation?

The more specific the better.

Thanks for the call Joe. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: rharrington
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Another take on it…


My thought is that "inside" may mean a conditioned space. One that is not suseptible to extreme temperature swings. The temp swings may occur in the set up here. Wasn't just thinking mositure.

Am I off base?

Rick


--
Rick A. Harrington
Central Ohio Home Inspections
www.patchhomeinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpope
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I’m back (I’ve been working all day). . .


This was a load side panelboard fed from the service equipment. (you see the SE in the background of the third pic). 1999 build and identical on all of the neighboring homes.

There were 24, single pole 15 amp breakers and the interior wiring was very neat and workman like (sorry no interior pic).

Based on Joe's reference, however, I will defer this to a licensed electrician. As you can see in this pic, there has been moisture inside the cover. . .

![](upload://hyDU2gpBT34SSQq2HbiyvuQQvJq.jpeg)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738