Settlement cracks in mortar in Texas

Originally Posted By: mroach
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When inspecting a home in the Texas clay soils, what kind of guide lines are y’all using for mortar/brick cracks to be considered bad enough for a structural engineer to be called out? I’ve bin told anything over a 1/4" is time to call an engineer. This is of course with out a cracked slab.


Thanks'
MarkR


--
Mark Roach
A Professional Home Inspection
TREC# 6467
http://www.aprofessionalhomeinspection.com
"Your Best Protection is a Professional Home Inspection"
Klien Volunteer Fireman

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mark,


All you have to do is use some common sense. If you smell something wrong bring in the engineer. If I called an engineer everytime I saw a 1/4" movement in bricks our engineers would be the richest people around. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Mark


I tend to agree with Joe on that one (well someone has to icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif ) I teach that cracks bigger than about 3/8 need looking at with caution, especially if the crack looks recent and has “sharp” edges and I get real hot and sweaty if there is any lateral displacement (ie if there is a step between the 2 sides of the crack). If the home is older, the edges are smooth and the 2 sides flush, I don’t make that big a deal of it, and suggest repair and seal rather than structural engineer. However if you find 2 cracks and a similar crack linking them through the slab beware, as that is indicative of a footings failure, you need to know how to read them. some where I’ve got a great slide on the subject I’ll see if I can post it later this week.


Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: mroach
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Ok so 3/8" is more of a standard.


This is the crack in question. http://community.webshots.com/photo/64312886/83790305ZiSIQv]1/4" Crack Every side of the house had hairline cracks under 1/8" with the exception of this one 1/4"


Thanks'
MarkR


--
Mark Roach
A Professional Home Inspection
TREC# 6467
http://www.aprofessionalhomeinspection.com
"Your Best Protection is a Professional Home Inspection"
Klien Volunteer Fireman

Originally Posted By: Richard Stanley
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Bricks and mortar - like gypsum is very brittle and it doesn’t take very much movement to produce a crack. I do not defer to structural engineer for only what I see in your pic. I am more concerned with the type and condition of foundation associated with the cracks and the other conditions such as interior walls, brick molding, etc. I find alot of brick walls that appear the way your photo is that will move slightly when I push on them. That usually means the ties were not installed correctly if at all. The bricks are only cosmetic and that is not a major structural problem. About the only time I call for the PE is cracked post tension slabs.


Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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icon_question.gif



Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Mark,


If I were to approach this veener brick wall, I would suggest that this wall get repointed at loose mortar areas and to monitor over the next few months.
I usually tell my customers that the best way to monitor big cracks is to stick a toothpick in the tight area of the crack. If they come back and the toothpick has moved downward or is on the floor, then to call an engineer.

Good Eye. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: rray
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Wow! You guys get to inspect brick, huh?



Home inspections. . . .


One home at a time.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Russel,


You mean to tell me they don't have brick out there in San Diego? Did all of it fall into the Pacific Ocean? HA ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: rray
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Most of our homes are stucco. Occasionally I find a stucco home, and on a good day, I get to inspect a stucco home. We are a varied state when it comes to construction.


I do miss watching the brick homes being stripped of their bricks in South Texas (hometown) during the hurricanes, though. I always thought that was so neat.


--
Home inspections. . . .
One home at a time.

Originally Posted By: Richard Stanley
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Did you also know that the primary reason for that is the low barometric pressure near the center of the hurricane?


Originally Posted By: rray
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Born and raised in Kingsville, Richard, so I’m up on them old hurricanes. For the last ten years I’ve had to become familiar with earthquakes.



Home inspections. . . .


One home at a time.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Mark … Although there is no “standard”, I think your initial gut reaction of 1/4" crack limit is a good rule of thumb (actually an engineer will generally look at anything 1/32" or larger per ACI). You also need to consider paterns and other clues as Gerry pointed out. Non-structural veneer cracks are a judgement call, but it’s indicating problem movement. Also, veneers actually work together with the framed walls sometimes, and you don’t realize it. Here’s some basics from http://www.inspect-ny.com/structure/foundation.htm



Minor, single, isolated, cosmetic, marketing concerns:
1. Cracks, hairline to 1/16" horizontal
2. Cracks, hairline to 1/8" vertical and step; [1/4" ? per Alk - note that this is an unsubstantiated opinion]]
3. Cracks in slabs, hairline to 1/8", not extending into foundation

Modest, monitoring appropriate
1. Horizontal bulge < 1.5", no signs of other significant damage
2. Leaning wall < 1/3 of wall thickness, from wall base (In author's opinion 1/3 is way too much movement to tolerate; a conventional thickness masonry block wall that leans in one inch over an 8' ht. (or maybe 1.5" per some surveys) might be monitored depending on other site conditions, history, etc. Walls buckled in or leaning more than 1" (or 1.5" in some jurisdictions) should be professionally evaluated further and may require near-term or even immediate repair; Walls buckled in or leaning an inch or less should be monitored.
4. If the cracks are old, with no sign of continuing/recurrent movement - the inspector is more likely to accept monitoring rather than requiring repair.
5. Cracks described by "wavy mortar" which were caused by damage during backfill while mortar was still "green" or soft (un-cured) and which are not accompanied by other signs of ongoing or additional movement, can be attributed to a single-event and may not require repair (depending on total amount of wall dislocation).

Significant, expert assessment needed. Repair may be needed.
1. >1.5" horizontal bulge/lean or lateral dislocation >1/4".
2. Signs of active, recent, recurrent movement (may be seasonal or ongoing)
3. Sudden appearance of cracks, particularly in areas known to have sink-holes (e.g. some areas of the U.S. such as in Florida.) requires immediate assessment.
4. Signs of repeated repairs to foundation or interior
5. Cracks 1/4" [ 3/8" per Alk] & larger
6. Investigate any finding of which the inspector is uncertain or inexperienced.

WARNING: Don't make conclusions just based on crack size and location. The inspector must consider other site factors conditions, history, materials, external forces, etc. Sudden catastrophes CAN occur, especially where site drainage or other conditions risk undermining or sudden forces on the foundation. (Source: www.ny-inspect.com)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Mark,


What did you end up reporting for this? That's a pretty big crack. I would have suspected foundation downwarping if no sprinklers or soaker hoses were around the perimeter of the slab to maintain consistent moisture.

Just curious.

John


Originally Posted By: rstephens
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Gerry were you ever able to get those photos you mentioned above posted?


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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John … I’m also an engineer and I have never heard the term “foundation downwarping” … not that it doesn’t exist … icon_confused.gif


Translation please!


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Robert,


I guess I would call it the "dry phase" of differential movement.

The theory applies to the expansive clay soil found in this part of the country and mainly associated with post tension slabs. It is believed that the first five feet of soil inside the perimeter of the foundation is most effected by the presence of (or lack of, possibly in this case) moisture. The interior most section of the slab retains consistent moisture content relatively speaking and is not subject to as much movement.

If the soil around the perimeter of the slab is allowed to dry out and shrink for an extended period of time (such as during a drought) so as to pull away from the exterior perimeter grade beams, the beams and perimeter of the slab will, cup, bow, or downwarp. The visual would look like the mouth on this emoticon ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)

Stairstep cracks in brick mortar would be an obvious result. Expanding the soil around the perimeter of the slab with consistent moisture will most likely lift the perimeter of the slab again and quite possibly make the mortar crack invisible.

Hey, go ahead and laugh. I've seen it happen.


--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Wow


Are you serious John? I never heard this before!


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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You know I am, David. You just wanted a use for that cool emoticon.



Inspection Nirvana!


We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Okay John … now I think I know what you are talking about.


Similar to frost heave at the center of slabs we get here sometimes in the northeast ... but in reverse. Maybe more like perimeter settlement of a thickened edge slab on poor soil. I would probably call that foundation perimeter subsidence/settlement and slab bowing [and the opposite of that would be foundation perimeter heaving with slab cupping], but then I'm not from your parts ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Expansive soils ... you poor soul. Some clay soils around here, but not highly expansive. I understand some people have to "water" their foundation sometimes during a dry spell just to get the front door open ... assuming they don't have an automatic foundation perimeter "sprinkler" ...

Isn't the usual construction grade beam and pier construction, with deep piers and bead board below the grade beam to accommodate that movement?

hmmmmm .... "downwarping" ... gotta try to work that term into the next foundation evaluation/repair I run across for a settled thickened edge slab ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong