Shiny new truck, slacks and sport shirt!

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Please read the following:


http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004505.html

Question:

Quote:
Built a 200a UG service on new home. Deck wraps all the way around the house, so it wound up on the deck.

I used sched 80 pvc for the stub-down for the poco. About 4' of it is exposed on the deck, and used 2- 2-hole straps to secure it to the wall.

Home inspector hired by the HO says it should have been RMC because of possible damage.

What the heck's going to be on a deck that will damage sched 80? If it was possible for a vehicle to hit it, I'd agree, but it's not.

What's everyone else's opinion?


I hope that the message in the link above is read and understood. I also hope that it was not someone who frequents this board, and if it was Shame on you!!

Now let the chips fall where they may!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Guest
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Gets out my secret decoder ring and works away at the cipher.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Generally speaking, schedule 80 PVC can be used anywhere that rigid is required to be used for the purpose of physical protection.



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: mbartels
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This is the same reason that my HVAC instructor got his panties in a bunch when he heard that I was a H.I.


He was a master electrician for 20+ years and had a few times when the H.I. stood up to him in order to save face in front of the customers.


The moral of the story is this.


Do not argue with a lic. electrician, plumber, HVAC, or any one. If they say it’s O.K. just let it be. Even if you don’t agree just know that the liability, if any, is now on them and not you. Don’t be afraid to admit when you are wrong.


Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Matthew: I think that is as good of post as any I’ve seen in three months. Well said. icon_smile.gif



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: cmccann
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Hey Joe, I would love to learn more about electricity but most of the time I can’t figure out the message your trying to tell me. Have you ever just come out and say what you mean? You speak in hidden meaning.



NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



mbartels wrote:
The moral of the story is this.
Do not argue with a lic. electrician, plumber, HVAC, or any one. If they say it's O.K. just let it be. Even if you don't agree just know that the liability, if any, is now on them and not you. Don't be afraid to admit when you are wrong.


Sorry Matthew and Ryan,

Sometimes, backing down JUST BECAUSE they are licensed contractors IS NOT doing your client any favors.

IF they are correct, yes.

HOWEVER, if they are INCORRECT, no, stand your ground and have them put it in writing.

ALL OF US (electricians, HIs, plumbers, etc., have run across other licensed "experts" who HAVE NOT IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING. We've all seen it.

To take that back seat just to try to relieve yourself of liability is not in your best interest or that of your client.

"But Judge, I let him have his say."

Judge "Yet you knew he was wrong?"

"Yes, I knew he was wrong, but he now has the liability."

Judge "Guess again. YOU KNEW it was wrong, you should have stated so."

Don't count on releasing yourself of liability if you know something is wrong just because someone else is saying it is okay. State what you know, state that you are not changing your report, THEN let it go. You have re-affirmed your opinion and protected yourself. Now, if your client ignores you, you are still saying "It's wrong."

All the above said, when you are convinced you were wrong and the licensed person is correct, by all means, say so and step back.

Just not "because" they are licensed and disagree with you.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Jerry: I appreciate your opinion, and I’m glad you posted it.


As you know, I'm not one to hide my feelings, so I'm going to rap for a minute and hopefully I don't piss too many people off.

Tradespeople hate home inspectors. Most municipal inspectors hate home inspectors. The reason for this is because HI's can't easily shoe their credibility. It is too easy to become an HI...I mean, look at the NACHI test!!! My daughter could pass it!

I have had home owners call me in the city that I work for as an inspector and they tell me all of these "problems" the HI found that I didn't. Some of them I thought were great...simply a HI doing their job, such as calling defects to the attention of the HO that I am not legally allowed to, such as cracked door jambs. But then the HO starts raising hell saying that there is no ground rod and therefore the electrical system WOULDN'T WORK!!! Now, I'm not trying to blow my own horn, bu I do teach the NEC as my part time job, and have taught some of the biggests clients out there (ICC, IAEI).

All I'm saying is HI's need to know there role. In my opinion, 99% of the time it is well beyond their expertise to argue with a master electrician or a senior electrical inspector or a code instructor.

I apologize if I've hurt feelings...it is certainly not my intent. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Ryan,


No hurt feelings, hope none are hurt there.

I was, and am, taking issue with this blanket statement. "Do not argue with a lic. electrician, plumber, HVAC, or any one."

And with this one. "If they say it's O.K. just let it be."

And this one. "Even if you don't agree just know that the liability, if any, is now on them and not you."

As blanket statements they are incorrect.

I agreed with this one "Don't be afraid to admit when you are wrong." But it also applies to electricians plumbers, code inspectors, and yes, HIs.

You are not telling me that you have never failed another electricians work as a code inspector, are you? That ALL electricians ALWAYS do it right?

I hope this is not being presumptuous before giving you a chance to answer, but "I didn't think so."

Oh, by the way ...

International Code Council (ICC)
- Certified Inspector Certificate Number 5181943
- - Combination Inspector - C8
- - - Building Inspector - B5
- - - Plumbing Inspector - P5
- - - Mechanical Inspector - M5
- - - Electrical Inspector - E5
- - - - Electrical Inspector Commercial - E2
- - - - Electrical Inspector Residential - E1


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:
Ryan,
You are not telling me that you have never failed another electricians work as a code inspector, are you? That ALL electricians ALWAYS do it right?

I hope this is not being presumptuous before giving you a chance to answer, but "I didn't think so."


No Jerry you're very right, and I agree with you as far as blanket statements are concerned. Again, I just think everyone should know and be comfortable with their range of knowledge....God knows we are all wrong, myself included, once in a while ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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I don’t hate HI’s…I don’t necessarily agree with them most the time but I don’t hate them. I, however, would appear as if I do hate them for I often go to the house that was recently inspected by a HI…and icon_eek.gif yes I wonder how they missed so much or how they cited stuff that wasn’t really a problem. Nevertheless, I love you guys…umm most of the time.



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



The sch 80 issue is really up to the minucipality that you are doing the work in. Most cities here allow sch 80 for services, even if the mast sits right on the driveway side of the house. Cost wise…pvc is the way to go. Install rigid and the cost doubles. I can only think of one city, of the 98 that I work in, that prohibits the use of pvc when the service sits 5 feet from a driveway.


I reckon if someone is gonna hit it with their mobile....it wouldn't really matter much what it is made of.....it is still gonna require repair. I would think if it was pvc it would be safer if someone hit it with their mobile because plastic is non-conductive. If the service mast sits on a deck....I cannot see any possible reason why rigid conduit would be required.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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cmccann wrote:
Hey Joe, I would love to learn more about electricity but most of the time I can't figure out the message your trying to tell me. Have you ever just come out and say what you mean? You speak in hidden meaning.


Hey Chuck:

What part of the original post is not clear to you? Hidden meanings? Me?

I tell it like it is, and most of the time the issue is the same as the many that are not clear. I help people as much as I can and would do the same for you.

The issues had to do with the comment made by a HI and he was probably taught to identify the Schedule 80 as being subject to physical damage?

What do you call physical damage where electrical equipment is considered?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Ryan,


While I do agree with the jest of what you are saying, I have to agree with Jerry P. on the counter. If it were not for "licensed" professionals doing a poor, unsatisfactory or non compliant installation to begin with, there would not be any demand for our professional services.

When it comes to the code, I don't really care if the licensed professional gives you a letter that the installation is code compliant, I want a letter saying it is a "SAFE" installation. Would you want that builder to build you a "code minimum safe house"?

There does come a time in every home inspectors career when they need to stand their ground and the safety of the clients supercedes any codes that I have ever read. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



icon_evil.gif Hmmmmmm


And what about the HI Joe...the one that misses most of the electrical problems in a house because he won't stick his head above a drop ceiling or crawl into a crawl space because his "gut" won't allow him to get in there? I happen to be one of them licensed professionals you spoke off and I take your comment as an insult to me and other licensed professionals. Most items you inspect were, at the time of installation, to code for the era of installations. To make a statement as you have just have has me somewhat confused. If you feel this way about licensed professionals then why are you taking info off this message board from the same? If we are so "incompetent", I would think you wouldn't be interested in anything we have to say!


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



And by the way Joe…The codes are there for safety…duh. If there were not codes, for anything…things would be installed any which way and with electrical you wouldn’t have a job as a HI because every house would burn down!!!



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



It is comments like that one Joe that caused me to leave this board the first time. I initially came here to learn the HI business and to help HI’s with electrical wherever and whenever I could. I was even applauded for doing such at times by Nick and others. We, (the licensed professionals) do not come here to bash a HI or to make them look stupid or to even insult them, as you have just insulted us. We come here to help…to give our professional advice on topics that HI’s have questions about. We do not claim to be perfectionists in our field but we do claim to be the experts. Why? Probably because most have been there and done that for many years like Joe, myself, Bob and a few others. We give advice on why someone should look above a drop ceiling or crawl into a crawl space. We know why such should be inspected because some of have us our heads above drop ceilings and our “guts” in crawl spaces every day. Joe Tedesco posts the things he posts in the interest of safety. Showing you graphic pictures and stating the things he states are there to show you what can happen if you touch the wrong thing or touch anything electrical in the wrong way. I respect Joe’s knowledge and welcome his input to this board in all ways.


Frankly, I have taken your comment as a insult and I am quite upset that such was even written. There is no reason to make such slanderous remarks about licensed professionals especially when we come here to help.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



dbozek wrote:
Most items you inspect were, at the time of installation, to code for the era of installations.


Dennis,

Not to answer for Joe (but I guess I am), that is a very bold (and VERY incorrect) statement.

MOST of what we see was NEVER acceptable.

Haven't you been looking at the photos? Sure, SOME are done by homeowners, and SOME are done by handymen, but by and large THEY ARE DONE by licensed electricians and other tradespeople, who, by the way, did not pull a permit either (in most cases).

Here are three examples of the same thing.

[ Image: neutral / ground cross over bar installed ]

[ Image: neutral / ground cross over bar removed - a no-no ]

[ Image: neutral / ground cross over bar - what is supposed to be installed when the metal one is removed ]


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Regardless, to make such a statement was uncalled for. I personally, as a licensed professional, take such a comment as an insult. To state it the way he did says that ALL licensed professionals are buffoons!!



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I would agree that some in my field are not competent as some in your field are the same. I see good home inspections and bad ones, every day. But I do not make a blanket statement stating that ALL HI’s are incompetent. I happen to take a lot of pride in my work and I always install it to the proper codes, even if that means making 20 trips to my van to make sure I have all that is needed to do the job right the first time. For someone to make such a statement about my chosen career with no real proof as to what I install and how I install it, is just plain wrong. The code changes every 3 years which basically means if something was installed in 1930 it probably had changed by the time anyone looks at it in 2004. Take grounding for example. Did K&T wiring have grounds? NO! Take the old cloth romex…did it have grounds? NO! Was it acceptable when first installed? Yes!!! It doesn’t mean some shade tree electrician installed the thing either.


If I state that something is code compliant to me that says it meets the code and therefore is safe. I am not about to put my John Hancock on any document that certifies something as safe if in fact it does not meet the codes. I don't write the code, but it is my bible. It is what I must follow when I do my job. To me, what is written has been proven to be safe. So when I sign documentation stating that something is code compliant.....it is a given to me, as it should be to others, that it is considered to be safe.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln