Sub panel bond

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1

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/D/DSC072821.jpg ]


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2

Originally Posted By: tallen
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I would think so, as it defeats the floating bond requirement.


Turd Allen

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3

Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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If this is a sub panel it should have a four wire feed.


The green screw bonds the neutral to the panel and should be removed. This will creat the floating neutral. The three ground wires on the right side of the neutral bar should be relocated to the grounding bar which is somewhat hidden further to the right.

The grounding bar should also have a bigger ground wire coming from the main panel. It may be there but I don't see it.

I also don't like how many romex cables are in that one conduit.

--
Jim Mosier

4

Originally Posted By: tallen
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I like that answer better. icon_cool.gif

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I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

5

Originally Posted By: lkage
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James D Mosier wrote:
If this is a sub panel it should have a four wire feed.

The green screw bonds the neutral to the panel and should be removed. This will creat the floating neutral. The three ground wires on the right side of the neutral bar should be relocated to the grounding bar which is somewhat hidden further to the right.


What I was thinking before I scrolled down here. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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6

Originally Posted By: cbuell
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If the sub-panel is fed with metal conduit it wouldn’t require the fourth wire

7

Originally Posted By: lkage
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cbuell wrote:
If the sub-panel is fed with metal conduit it wouldn't require the fourth wire


Good point. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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Galileo Galilei
8

Originally Posted By: rwand
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Isn’t it a concern with all those 12ga. lines coming in from the feed conduit? What about overheating, and grouping, no airspace. I am sure there are limits to how many circuits you can feed through conduit?


The conduit appears to be PVC not metal so it would require the fourth wire?

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON

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9

Originally Posted By: lkage
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rwand wrote:
The conduit appears to be PVC not metal so it would require the fourth wire?


I don't see the conduit. I see a plastic bushing. What makes the conduit appear plastic to you?

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"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
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10

Originally Posted By: rwand
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Larry,


I am guessing only because the colour looks more Pvc than metal, regardless there is a limit to the number of wires per bushing I believe. I think it may be two wires per bushing.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON

--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)

11

Originally Posted By: pdickerson
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In my Code Check electrical book, there is picture of several cables entering a panel through a conduit in exactly the same manner as the cables enter this panel, except that in the Code Check book, there is a big circle and slash through the photo and an explanation that this is a code violation.


However, I have seen lots of photos on this BB showing multiple cables entering panels through a conduit. This leads me to believe that some AHJ's do not have an issue with this practice. I don't see it in my area. I would write it up if I did.

12

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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see 312.5 Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) or more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all the following conditions are met:


(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.


(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.


© A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.


(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.


(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (1/4 in.).


(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.


(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.


FPN:See Table 1 in Chapter 9, including Note 9, for allowable cable fill in circular raceways. See 310.15(B)(2)(a) for required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a common raceway.


The exception, which was added for the 1999 NEC, spells out the requirements that allow multiple nonmetallic cables such as Type NM, NMC, NMS, UF, SE, and USE to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through a nonflexible raceway sleeve or nipple. These sleeves or nipples are permitted to be 18 in. to 10 ft in length. However, if the nipple length exceeds 24 in., ampacity adjustment factors as specified in 310.15(B)(2) apply.

13

Originally Posted By: pdickerson
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Thanks for the clarifiacation, Greg

14

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The guys over at Bob’s house call this “stove piping”. They were just talking about it tonight. The concerns are “fill” and derating.


They debated about how much load you can actually get in a residential setting at any one time but the bottom line is you still need to follow the code. It was pointed out that some states have more flexible derating tables for 1&2 family dwellings because of load diversity.


I linked the picture in this thread to illustrate a stove pipe.

They all said it was an ugly panel too ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

15

Originally Posted By: rwand
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It isn’t right and is a concern and possible hot spot could result at the bushing. Not knowing how much each cable is drawing amps wise, I would write it up for repair/improvement/replacement.


It also "appears" a few ground wires (right side) have been improperly clamped into the neutral bar.

Another concern, if those are GFCI on the left of the panel and some of the ground wires appear to be going to the neutral bar, the GFCI are wired incorrectly, I think. The whole panel is a disaster, and slopply done to boot.

Also the black wire upper right going to the neutral bar should be marked white.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON

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The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)

16

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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cbuell wrote:
If the sub-panel is fed with metal conduit it wouldn't require the fourth wire

Good call. All steel conduits in this size must have a double lock nut and a bushing. It looks to me that there is a double locknut and a plastic bushing . Smaller conduits could have use a steel locknut and a steel bushing seldom done usually double lock nuts and plastic bushing .
Ground wires in Canada can not go into the neutral bar. I believe this is allowed in the USA .
All pony panels must have the neutral and ground isolated from each other. Only at the primary is the neutral connected to the ground, and the Box.
I too am concerned with all those cables crowded together.

--
Roy Cooke Sr.

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17

Originally Posted By: mcyr
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icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif


Roy; I know you know what you are talking about, and electrical is not my cup of tea, but if I had an electrician make up a subpanel like this on my commercial jobs that I do, I would fire him regardless if he had a masters license. I do know what electrical panels should look like and this is not one of them.

If I understood this post correctly, Maine electrical panels have a neutral bar and a ground bar. They are separated but bonded together I believe.

Not sure.

Marcel