I did an inspection and found multiple issues in the small sub panel at the pool. The panel had a dead front hand made from thin wood, a sharp screw, a double tapped breaker and grounds and neutrals floating together on the neutral bar. I called out all issues in the report and repairs were made. I returned to find a new panel, new screws, no double tap but the grounds and neutrals were still together and floated. I called the electrician and he said he would return and correct the bonding issue today. Today he sent me a photo of the panel and the grounds and neutrals were still together, but he bonded the entire bar to the box with a wire. I texted and said the wires were still together but now the neutrals are bonded to the box and he said that was the only way to properly bond this panel. What say you?
I’d say you’re right. It’s a sub-panel and should be wired as such.
3 strikes and he’s out - IMO they need a new Electrician.
No, you absolutely cannot bond the neutral and ground to the box (or to each other) in a sub-panel. They must remain separate to avoid hazardous parallel current paths, shock risks, and violation of electrical codes. The neutral must be isolated from the panel case, while the ground connects to the case.
In sub-panel they must be seperate
Yup
The plywood cover is arguably not a defect, but definitely an indicator that we have amateur hour.
That’s probably the problem. No 4th wire to separate the grounds on. Assuming this is on the same structure as the panel that feeds it, then a 4th wire should have been fed. If it is on a separate structure, then it depends on when it was installed.
Yes it’s a 3-wire feeder which is evident from the bare neutral. There needs to be a 4-wire feeder and separate EGC bus for the EGC’s only and the neutrals on the neutral bus.
Ok, let me start by stating that I am Not an electrician nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. Looking at Christopher’s diagram I see a sub panel in a different building. My mind would say that since it’s a sub panel, the neutral bus shouldn’t be bonded to the panel. What am I not understanding in the diagram?
Good question. The graphic depicts a sub-panel in a separate structure and a 3-wire feeder. Prior to the 2008 NEC this was permitted, you could run only 3 conductors and bond the neutral in the sub-panel when there were no metallic parallel paths between the two structures. Although these installations may still exist they are no longer permitted by the NEC.
I have put a couple of calls in to the electrician and am eager to hear his take. Getting him to call me back may be harder than seeing the taped wiring.
As Robert stated prior to 2008 it was permitted to run a 3-wire feeder to a sub-panel at a separate structure. Bonding the neutrals and grounds in the sub-panel, and installing a ground rod. I see this often in detached garages built prior to 2008, or even built later if the 2008 code had not been enforced at that time.
It is important to note that the NEC and all other codes (IRC, IBC, IMC, etc.) are NOT retroactive! Reading the statement I quoted might lead you to believe the NEC is the authority that permits or disallows things. This is not the case because the authority is the local jurisdiction which adopts and modifies codes to meet their particular needs. Just because a jurisdiction has adopted a particular year issue of the NEC does not mean that every item has been adopted.
If you call out an item that was proper and allowed at the time of construction this will benefit no one, likely get an electrician to castigate you and give you a black mark with local realtors as an inspector making their life more difficult.
^ This!!!
Wow, I hate it when the specialists can’t figure out the basics.
As others have eluded, this setup may have been originally allowed if the sub panel was mounted on a separate structure and there were no metallic path back to the house. The electrician may have had no other choice.
Is the sub panel mounted on a separate structure like a pool house or garage?
Negative. It is on the side of the home. I sent him a couple of texts, both respectful and professional, but he has opted not to respond. This panel was installed new this week, to replace the previous panel that was improperly wired. That being said, I would surmise it is required to be installed to the current AHJ standards. I’m still looking for the explanation of why a sub panel would be bonded this way.
I agree. That is also the requirement in my service area. Repairing one single circuit is one thing, replacing the panel is completely another!
IMO… you have your reason why the Electrician is no longer replying. He took a short cut, (perhaps at the sellers request to save money), and you found him out and called his bluff.
Good job!!
Curious… did you see any indication that a Permit was pulled, (and inspected)?
If not, personally, my next step would be to contact the chief electrical inspector.
Is it normal for home inspectors to ask the seller for permit and inspection paperwork? When I sold my last home the inspection report noted that the seller (me) should provide evidence of permits and inspections for things like the new electrical service, finished basement, deck, kitchen, etc.
Neutrals and the bonding wires are to be separated in the sub panels. Including the removal of the bonding screw from the neutral bus. Picture of sub panel above shows an instance where current could travel back to main panel on bare coper bonding wire, which is a fire hazard.