Sub Panel: Neutrals and grounds on same bus bar Question

Is this narrative ok or what could I do to make it better?

“Neutrals and grounds on same bus bar. In a sub panel the neutrals and grounds should be on separate bars with the ground bar bonded to the panel and the neutral bar floating. Recommend further evaluation by a licensed electrician.”

I would replace the word grounds with proper NEC term Equipment Grounding Conductors.

Robert Thank you, but do you think the average homeowner would understand what Equipment Grounding Conductors are? Just askin’
I like to keep all my narratives very easy to understand by anyone…
However, I have changed it to Equipment Grounding Conductors.
Thanks again.

If you use the above term and put “grounding wires” in parenthesis, homeowners and professionals would understand.
Just sayin’.

Are you saying to replace grounds with “(grounding wires)”?

Neutrals and equipment grounding conductors (grounding wires) on same bus bar. In a sub panel the neutrals and equipment grounding conductors should be on separate bars with the ground bar bonded to the panel and the neutral bar floating. Recommend further evaluation by a licensed electrician.

Is that what you mean?

Thanks

No, replace them with ground black peppercorns. WTF??
Don’t be a Wayne.

Agree, but use “…grounds (EGC’s)…” instead of “…grounds (grounding wires)…”.
JMHO

Thank you Linas for being you…:stuck_out_tongue:
ground black peppercorns sounds good to me.

I can understand your desire keep it simple but if they don’t understand the difference between equipment grounding conductors and neutral conductors then they’re going to need professional help anyway. Just my 2 cents but the word ground(s) is too broad and is often misused.

Thanks…
Equipment Grounding Conductors it is!

No mention of why or what could happen if left as is? No mention of a safety issue? I think the average home buyer needs to know why.
I don’t think the average home buyer needs to know the difference between grounds and egc’s. An electrician is going to be the one doing the repairs, so word it in terms they understand with professional vocabulary.
Why does an electrician have to evaluate? Evaluate what? It’s wrong and needs a fixin’

That is why I post the question…
Josh how would you phrase it?

This narrative doesn’t accurately describe any particular condition (IMHO).

Here are several conditions that are usually associated with what you’re trying to describe:

(1) Equipment grounding conductors are attached to the isolated neutral terminal.
(2) Neutrals have been attached to the equipment grounding terminal.
(3) The neutral terminal has been bonded to the enclosure.
(4) The equipment grounding conductors have not been bonded to the enclosure.

I use “equipment grounding conductors (EGC’s)” in my reporting. Then, rather than “recommend further evaluation,” I use “which should be corrected by a qualified electrician.”

If the panel is in a detached building there is nothing wrong with that if fed by a 3 wire feeder under certain conditions. Do not just use that verbiage as a blanket unless it applies.

I just add " dangerous conditions can occur"…

SAFETY: “Neutral wires and equipment grounds should not be bonded in a sub panel. Dangerous conditions can occur. They should be separated and isolated by a qualified electrical contractor for safety.”

My first question as your client would be… “Such as”?

I think this is to much info to include in a report.

"Though the neutral doesn’t have significant voltage, it does carry current. Remember, it’s current that kills, not voltage. In a 2-wire circuit, the neutral carries just as much current as the hot conductor. If the neutral and ground are connected in a subpanel, that current will travel on other paths, such as bare ground wires, equipment enclosures, and metal piping systems, on its way back to the service panel. One problem created by this condition is possible shock hazards, the severity of which depends on the locations of the equipment and the person touching the enclosure or piping system. Another problem is magnetic fields that do not cancel themselves out. Since the return current has multiple paths, the current remaining in the neutral will not counterbalance the current in the hot wire. The resulting imbalance creates a magnetic field that can interfere with sensitive electronic equipment. In a metal conduit system, the imbalance will induce current into the conduit, which could cause the conduit to overheat. "

Dude… take a break, have a beer, kick the cat… you lost me halfway through that ‘lesson’.

Here is something I use with improper grounding at sub panel

“At time of the inspection there was improper and unsafe grounding at the sub panel(s). The neutral conductor (white or grey wire) and the equipment ground conductor (bare or green wire) were bonded together at the sub panel(s). This condition could allow stray electrical currents from the grounded neutral to go [FONT=&quot]through the equipment grounding conductors on the electrical devices that are fed from the sub panel. Neutral conductors should be kept separate from the equipment ground conductor and properly isolated from the sub panel metal enclosure while the equipment ground conductors should be properly bonded to the sub panel metal enclosure. Recommend corrective repair as necessary from a qualified electrical contractor.”[/FONT]

This is is my narrative.

" Sub panel appears improperly wired. Neutral conductors are required to be isolated to prevent current from traveling on an unintended path, possibly energizing equipment cabinets or uninsulated grounding conductors. Further evaluation for corrections is recommended "

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