Updated electrical panel with concerns please comment

1948 home with newer panel (Eaton) and electrical service. 200 amp disconnect at the meter outside and panel located in the garage.

A few observations and questions.

  1. All receptacles downstream were ungrounded except for GFCI
  2. All receptacles were 3 prong and not labeled “no equipment ground”
  3. What do you think about the condition of the old sheathing and has anyone ever seen this sheathing “wrap” before?
  4. Does this panel look modified? Is that plastic behind the breakers normal?
  5. Can anyone confirm the neutral and ground is separated?
    All feedback welcome including narratives. ( I have more photos :crazy_face: )







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1, 2. When they upgrade panelboards here, the permitting authority typically requires the upgrade of the receptacles to GFCI protection (with stickers indicating no equipment ground) .
3. That looks like common spiral wrap, often used for LV cable or wire management.
4. Not familiar with the plate over the bus bars, doesn’t look modified though.
5. There is a bonding strap in your photo, and it should only be present if it’s service equipment. This is downstream panelboard.

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Thanks for the information!

Does this satisfy the bonding requirement?

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I think I found a Cutler CH load center with that center plate
It looks like yours had the main breaker removed.

Yep, that’s it. I have probably seen before but never made a note of it. I was hyper sensitive to this panel.

If it isn’t service equipment (or point of disconnect / “main panel”) the neutrals and ground (grounded & grounding) need to be isolated, not bonded.

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Yep…this is where I am concerned. The main service disconnect was at the meter outside. This panel is 25 feet across the garage on an interior opposing wall. I have difficulty determining if they are isolated (as a generalist :slight_smile: )

I would think so.

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Okay, I am about to push the button on this report. Seems you two are awake @ruecker and @ddagostino

This is my narrative. Is my ass covered and does the client have enough information to make an informed decision?

The electrical service and panelboard is more modern equipment. However some branch wiring is older or original. Updating this equipment typically requires a permit and often requires other safety updates such as (not limited to) newer branch wiring and arc fault protected circuits. Some local jurisdictions may allow for exemptions. The older or original wiring in the panel was in poor condition, frayed or deteriorated. The down stream receptacles tested open ground or hot/neutral reversed (GFCI protected receptacles excluded). The list of concerns is not exhaustive.

Based on observed condition, I have safety and reliability concerns with the electrical system. Recommend further evaluation of the entire electrical system for safety issues and subsequent repairs or corrections as needed by a qualified electrical contractor. Recommend asking the seller for any related documentation such as scope of work, invoices, applicable warranties and permits. Permits may also be obtained at the local building department, often online.

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It’s a mouthful for sure but seems to cover all the bases.

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I know right! I will boil down or reduce it now that I got that facts in. Thanks!

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Looks like you mentioned enough to get someone’s attention.
The conductor insulation and that wonky low voltage spiral wrap should be addressed, along with the bonding.
Looks like a sparky did it all, but some loose ends. And if your jurisdiction has permitting requirements, I’d hit that also (local AHJ might have their own punch list for panel upgrades). And yes, i see you have that in there too.

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Here are a few phrase you could possibly use. No particular order, just phrases to possibly help reduce the word count.

  • The home’s electrical system had a mixture of old and newer components.
  • Some of the older components appeared to be beyond their useful life expectancy.
  • Multiple receptacles showed incorrect wiring or issues when tested.
  • Not all receptacles were tested.
  • The home’s electrical system may not be reliable.
  • Any permits or documentation related to the home’s electrical system should be obtained from the current owner.
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That is really good @ruecker

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Thanks Scott!

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The spiral wrap was part of the old AC cable. It was between the metal sheath and the conductors.

The panel should not be bonded.

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Thanks Jim, from the photo’s would you say that it is bonded and needs to be corrected?

The bond strap near the tywrap looks to be installed on a neutral bar and should be removed. This panel should be fed with 4 wires.

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I suppose, but I’d prefer to see the paint stripped off the box in that location… or actually removed since that’s not the main disconnect, and there’s a four wire feed to the panel.
image


The only thing that really bothered me was

Thus maybe

  • Electrical system is a mix of ages
  • While the workmanship is good, it’s not clear that permits or City inspections took place.
  • Some of the oldest cloth based wiring was apparently moved from an older panel, to a new one. The insulation was protected with a spiral wrap which is not itself a problem, but in some cases the threads on the cloth wiring are showing signs of unraveling. If these wires unravel in a place where wires can touch, this can lead to severe consequences.

Strongly recommend this electrical system be checked by an electrician skilled and used to working with older electrical systems. Strongly recommend mapping which circuits use the oldest wire, and evaluating if there are other options should that wiring need replacement.

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