**There was improper wiring at the sub-panel. Neutral and ground wires were improperly installed on the same buss bar at a sub-panel. In case of a short, etc this can allow electricity to go in multiple directions and is a safety hazard.
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2 Likes
Perfect… I like it short and simple …
Just my opinion but I would leave out the portion in red. The reason that it is not permitted is because the EGC(s) and possibly the metal components of the system are in parallel with the neutral therefore under normal conditions neutral current will flow on the EGC(s), metallic conduit or other metallic components.
Nice one as always your comments are appreciated . have a good day . :roll:
Current would be flowing on the egc under normal operation. Roberts comment is more appropriate.
Robert …
Agreed BUT nobody would have a clue what you were saying … So make it simplistic so they can understand it.
As I said before I would leave out the part in red. I’m not even sure what it means. Maybe you could explain.
While a short would energize the egc, it would only be for a few cycles until the breaker tripped. Neutral current would be on the egc whenever current was flowing.
Simplistic and simple and accurate are two different things. The reason needs to be accurate, otherwise it discredits the knowledge of the inspector and would make me question the report.
I think they were talking about the paralleled path during a fault condition and ignoring the main issue by incorrectly oversimplification of the issue.
Separated and isolated from what?
Again, this is inaccurate information and should be described based on the actual condition. Believe it or not, I have discovered there are many electricians who do not understand what is required.
If neutrals are bonded to the enclosure, the correction is to isolate them from the enclosure.
If ECG’s are isolated from the enclosure, the correction is to bond them to the enclosure.
This corrects the issue regardless if there’s one shared terminal or two separate terminals.
The issue is the neutral current is flowing on a part of the system that should only have current flowing on it during a ground fault and not during normal conditions. The system is designed to have fault current on the EGC and metallic parts during a ground fault so that in itself is not inherently hazardous.
Thanks for all the great replys .
Roy
I would amend the following for clarity:
Neutrals (Grounded Conductors) and Equipment Grounding Conductors on same bus bar. In a remote distribution panel the neutrals/grounded conductors and equipment grounding conductors SHALL BE on separate bars with the equipment grounding bar bonded to the panel enclosure and the neutral/grounded bus bar floating. Recommend further evaluation by a licensed electrical contractor.
Jim & Robert …
Could just be our backward area, but I’ve never had anybody (buyer, seller, agent, electrician, etc) question or challenge the comment as worded and looked on my past reports and I see we’ve used this at least as far back as 2005.
Many of the comments I see on our nachi site may be accurate BUT look and sound more like 2 computer programmers, scientists, electricians, college instructors, etc talking to each other vs talking real world to a client. AND never had clients question our knowledge, skill, etc. Again, could just be our backward area
JMHO and 35+ yrs inspecting.
I’m not an HI so I’ll leave the wording up to you and I can’t argue against your years of success but my comment is about the wording that you’ve chosen in post #21 (I said to leave out the red wording) because it’s inaccurate.
For one you’re not talking about a "short" or more accurately a short circuit condition you’re talking about a ground fault condition.
Secondly if someone handed me a report and it stated that the problem was that* “this can allow electricity to go in multiple directions”* I would think that whoever wrote the report didn’t really understand the concept of why the connection of the neutrals and EGC’s on both ends is a problem.
Sorry for the somewhat harsh critique but IMO it’s better to use wording similar to what Paul outlined in his last post.
Here is a narrative I use. "Incorrect grounding and bonding observed in the subject panel. A home that is not properly grounded may pose a threat to life and property. Recommend evaluation and repair by a licensed Electrican for safe and adequate service "
Thank you Paul. That is darn close to what I already have. Nice to know I’m on the right path there.
Although I agree with Jeff Pope, I prefer to recommend repair by rather than further evaluation. If it’s wrong, it should be repaired. I’m already being paid to evaluate it.
I have found it helpful to go over many of my comments with a local electrician.
Thanks Michael that sounds good
Good comments…
The neutral bar is never floating (in a residential system). If it were, that would be an egregiously bad installation.