Sub Panel or Illegal Tap?

Originally Posted By: Ronald Edward Adamson
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icon_smile.gif Could this extra conductor be for a sub panel or maybe an illegal tap? I didn’t see a sub panel.


Thanks,

Ed
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/E/Extra_Conductor.JPG ]


Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Could it just be “the neutral wire”.



Erby Crofutt


B4U Close Home Inspections


Georgetown, Kentucky



www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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Ronald Edward Adamson wrote:
![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) Could this extra conductor be for a sub panel or maybe an illegal tap? I didn't see a sub panel.

Thanks,

Ed
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/E/Extra_Conductor.JPG ]

Did the wire come in from the meter . It looks like they have two hot feeds and have used tape to identify the neutral.
I do think if you are unsure of your self you should take an electrical course to become more familiar with the electric working in a home.
The green wire on the right is that the ground buss where are the rest of the ground wires .Where does the white wire in the same buss come from .
Have you more pictures.
Roy Cooke sr.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I am 99% sure that is the GEC (grounding electrode conductor) running off to the water main or other grounding electrodes.


It does not have to be bare or green.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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Member - MAB


http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm

Originally Posted By: Ronald Edward Adamson
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icon_smile.gif


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/E/Extra_Conductor_21.JPG ]


Maybe this pic will help. The red arrow is the conductor in question. It looked to me that it comes off prior to the main breaker and exits with the branch wiring. The two sec's come in from the meter on the right with the neutral which is taped. I did not see a sub panel and thought that even if there was one it should come off a circuit breaker in the main panel. Just wasn't sure and was hoping I could get an idea what to look from some seasoned home inspectors.

Thx,

Ed


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Ed I am not a seasoned home inspector but I am a seasoned electrician, icon_smile.gif I have about 24 years in the trade.


That wire that you have pointed to with the arrow is connected to the same bus bar as the neutral wire from the supply.

That is exactly where the GEC should be connected.

As I said I am 99%, make that 99.9%, sure that is the GEC and it looks perfectly code compliant.

Every service must have a GEC (Grounding Electrode Conductor) connected to the neutral conductor somewhere between the utility supply point and the service disconnect switch.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: Ronald Edward Adamson
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icon_smile.gif Thanks Bob, I am actually neither but working on the home inspector. I sure do appreciate your advice. I had it in my head that the ground had to come off the neutral ground bus.


Thanks,

Ed


Originally Posted By: cbuell
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Ed,


Does that mess of romex actually come out of conduit? Do you have a picture of what the outside of the top of the box looks like?


Originally Posted By: rcooke
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cbuell wrote:
Ed,
Does that mess of romex actually come out of conduit? Do you have a picture of what the outside of the top of the box looks like?


Good catch If the wires are in an enclosed pipe I do believe they have to be derated .
When doing an inspection do not be afraid to write further evaluation by qualified person. End of story move to the next part of the inspection . Remember we are not experts in all fields just a generalist .
Roy Cooke sr


Originally Posted By: Ronald Edward Adamson
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Charles,


I didn't get a pic. I believe they ran through conduit into the garage attic, if that is what you were asking.

Ed


Originally Posted By: Ronald Edward Adamson
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icon_smile.gif Thanks for the advice guys. I’m definitly gonna advise an electrician on this one. This home is owned by friends that are letting me do the inspection for my quota to join . They bought it and didn’t have it inspected. It’s got lots of issues and is really good experience for me being new at inspecting.


Thanks,

Ed


Originally Posted By: rcooke
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Ronald Edward Adamson wrote:
![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) Thanks for the advice guys. I'm definitly gonna advise an electrician on this one. This home is owned by friends that are letting me do the inspection for my quota to join . They bought it and didn't have it inspected. It's got lots of issues and is really good experience for me being new at inspecting.

Thanks,

Ed


Glad to help please come back and ask again we all learn from other's asking questions .
Roy Cooke sr .
Royshomeinspection.com


Originally Posted By: dedwards
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For Bob Badger,


Bob, if anyone hasn’t thanked you lately let me be the next one to do that. You always come back with straightforward, to the point answers to people’s questions. I have learned a lot from you just from reading yours and Joe T. posts. When the two of you get together sometimes my eyes glaze over because you two guys speak the language of Sparky’s. I took a residential wiring course one summer but that does not adequately prepare you for some of the crapola we run across out in the real world. Lots of homeowner installed stuff astounds me. But I just wanted to say thank you for your posts and input.


Doug Edwards


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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The GEC is located as Bob states and if colored can be green or green with a yellow strip now permitted by the 2005 NEC per 250.119.


I don't see the Main Bonding Jumper and the bundles of Romex, in the two "sleeved" conduits at the top of the panel are questionable, and may violate Table 1 in Chapter 9 (OVER FILLED), but hey don't get into to much "Code Stuff" since you are not supposed to talk any "code" here -- eh? ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

PS: What are the white wires doing connected to the CB's? I see TWO neutrals under one terminal too?




--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I think this is the MBJ screw on a SqD (green arrow) but it should be a green hex head.


![](upload://v8E4rbgGsyUJl6dmkurkUOnYyZi.jpeg)


Originally Posted By: bking
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What appears to be conduit is probably just an inch or so long for sleeving and should not be part of the code for conduit fill percentages.



www.BAKingHomeInspections.com

Originally Posted By: rfeiler
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If it is a conduit entering deration is not necessary under 2 feet.


If the mistery wire is a ground it should be bare or phased green.


Did anyone note that the two conduits are 2 in diameter which requires an anti short bushing?


Originally Posted By: rcooke
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rfeiler wrote:
If it is a conduit entering deration is not necessary under 2 feet.
If the mistery wire is a ground it should be bare or phased green.
Did anyone note that the two conduits are 2 in diameter which requires an anti short bushing?


I am in Canada and Plastic pipe does not require a bushing also green is always ground but ground is not always green.
Is the code different in the USA?
Double taps are not allowed with most breakers and White should not be used as a hot wire .
Double taps should not be used in the neutral bar.
Roy Cooke sr.


Originally Posted By: rfeiler
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In the states ground wires should be bare copper or marked with green tape.


Conduits over one and one half inches diameter should have a bushing.


Breakers should not be double lugged. Some Square D breakers allow two wires under certain restrictions (check their web site ).


By the picture this does not appear to be a neutral tap (it is also in its own lug).


The system should be bonded closest to the point of service entrance. I bet if you follow this wire it will lead to a water pipe.


White wires can be used as a hot if it is properly marked with a hot color (red or black). Example if you run 12/2 nmb with ground to a 220v baseboard heater the white is used as a hot and should be marked.


In the states the National Electric Code is the standard but one of the front sections states " the municipality having jurisdiction shall have the final say". Not all states adopt all of he code uniformly.