This was a 3-wire feed to a sub-panel with 240v/double pole breakers only (for a geothermal system). So my question is, since there are no neutrals, it’s not “wrong”, correct? I don’t see how it could be. As long as no one goes and adds anything, there would be no issue, right? Am I missing something? How would you comment on? Just say it should be a 4-wire, even though it’s unnecessary in this situation? BTW, there were two main panels with plenty of room for more circuits if needed. TIA & I appreciate any helpful insight.
p.s. the grounds are black due to sulphur water.
A 240 volt feeder to a sub-panel does not require a neutral if there are no 120 volt circuits. Nothing to report except maybe that in the future this panel can only supply 240 volt, 2 wire circuits.
And why they landed the black and red on the breaker on the top right instead of moving the CB to the left is beyond me.
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Why would you say something like that? That makes no sense. What other unnecessary stuff do you tell people should be there even though it is unnecessary?
Aren’t panels downstream of the main disconnect supposed to have a 4-wire feed?
Robert answered your question.
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No, a neutral wire is not required in the panel feeder if there are no 120 volt branch circuits in the panel. In your photo all of the loads are 1Ø, 240 volts so the neutral is not required. Doesn’t help the guy in the future who wants to use the panel for a 120 volt load but that is a design issue not a code issue.
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The grounds are on the neutral bar…
What I see wrong here is that the grounds are not connected at the ground screw and the neutral bar is connected to the ground screw? Or is this the ground bar and the neutral bar is removed?
Kaitlan, please re-read the thread carefully, there is no neutral supplied to this 240v-only panel.
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No I understand that. What I don’t understand is where the grounds are placed. This looks like a neutral bar…
A 240 volt circuit does not require a grounded neutral.
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It’s a bit unorthodox to have a feeder to a panel with no neutral so that makes it confusing. Here there is no neutral bar, the bar that would normally be used as the neutral bar is being used as the EGC bar hence the confusion. The feeder to this panel is 1Ø, 240 volts without a neutral. The NEC does not require a neutral in the feeder when there are only 240 volt loads.
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Are you talking about EGC (equipment grounding conductor) or some other ground?
Corrected. It should have said grounded neutral.
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You were right to call it out, even if only for the reason Robert stated…”in the future this panel can only supply 240 volt, 2 wire circuits.”.
The master electrician that I apprentice with agrees that because the panel could be used to add 120 volt circuits that a neutral should have been added and that is was probably cheaper for the original installer not to run a neutral. He further added that my local building department in NE Indiana probably wouldn’t have passed it for the same reason. Curious, is the house in Defiance county Ohio by chance?
I’m curious as to what the inspector would cite as a code violation. Barring any local amendment based on the NEC it’s code compliant.
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It was the electricians opinion based on what he knows about one of the county inspectors. He apparently apprenticed him about 30 years ago. I asked him to ask the inspector what he would do in the same situation. Stay tuned.
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Can’t anyone wrap their head around that this is an HVAC Equipment panel? Thus all this confusion…
Do all dryer plugs (from the past) have a neutral? Must they be changed?
Reporting what a client can’t do to any electrical service is a far reach.
As for future use of this panel, HI SOP does not allow “Predicting the Future”, does it not?
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David, older dryer receptacles had a neutral. They did not have a dedicated grounding conductor.
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Playing what if would make every installation an issue trying to guess what someone could do.
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Sometimes, but not always. It depends on the location and other factors.
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