This 50 amp hot tub subpanel has a GFCI breaker, but the panel box does not have a neutral with the feed. It was only fed with a 6-2 with ground, which I know would typically be fine for 240v, but with a GFCI breaker, I assume the GFCI will not function properly without the return neutral?
-If they just bond the neutral and the grounding, it should work, but problem is, they attached the breaker’s squiggly neutral to the floating bus bar with no bonding.
2… Secondly, the service panel was replaced with a generator transfer switch. The feed from the service panel to the distribution panel was a 2-0 copper, but instead of an equal size neutral, they used a smaller conductor, meant for an EGC.
I assume this is too small for the neutral, correct?
240v GFCI pigtail needs a proper neutral for its internals to function properly, such as the test button. The neutral and EGC are supposed to be separate in a subpanel, so not to be bonded.
The feeder neutral can be smaller and is often the case. It depends, in part, on the unbalanced load calculation. The identification of the neutral (green) is questionable. Where is the EGC for the subpanel?
Thanks, Simon.
Being that 240V panels dont really need a neutral feeder, do you think it is acceptable to just bond the GFCI neutral pigtail to the EGC, or should an additional conductor be ran for that purpose? Technically, it should work that way, but not sure if that is allowed.
The EGC from the service panel to the distribution panel may not be needed in this setup.
I called that out previously on another inspection, and the electrician said it was acceptable. I assume it follows the disconnect rule, where you are still allowed to run a 3 wire feed to the distribution?
The EGC is not meant to carry non fault current, so I don’t know how you can make it work safely/correctly without a dedicated neutral.
There is an exception but only for a remote distribution panel in a remote structure installed before 2008. If both panels are in the same building, no exception.
Thanks Robert.
If the the 240v were not a GFCI, it would not need a neutral. I thought that extra pigtail on the GFCI was just to sense a ground fault, not to actually carry any neutral current?
I guess I’ve never really thought about the difference between a typical breaker with a ground fault, and a GFCI breaker with a ground fault. A GFCI breaker needs both neutral current and an EGC to work properly?
Correct no GFCI breaker then the feeder could be 3-wire without a neutral.
A GFCI breaker needs a line side neutral to function correctly it doesn’t require a EGC to operate. It also doesn’t need a load neutral. The metal enclosure that is housing the GFCI breaker requires an EGC to properly ground it.
In the case of a 240v GFCI breaker, is the neutral pigtail needed for 120v internal workings of the breaker, or does it actually use that neutral connection for part of the fault sensing process?
Even without a load neutral the breaker uses the neutral connection to power the internal components of the device and is required to operate the test button.
If you think about it say the breaker has only two ungrounded condcutors connected to it and you pressed the test button how would the breaker create a current imbalance between the two conductors without the neutral connection?
If you had “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT” Then a 3 wire could go to the service panel. AFAIK, the ATS cannot be used for EM disconnect only (without also being service disconnect), thus requiring a 4 wire feeder to the panel inside.
If the circuit utilizes a neutral the pigtail will carry all of the neutral current. The branch circuit neutral is connected directly to the breaker and the neutral current flows through the breaker to the panel neutral via the pigtail.
No, because the breaker was off, and I didn’t know where the other end terminated.
This was for a hot tub, but it’s been disconnected, and there weren’t any other junction boxes or conduit.
So I didn’t want to turn it on.
