No openings, some of that is air and some is moisture.
Geeze, things aren’t that straight forward even with thermal imaging are they!? 
There was missing insulation “above” the window though!
The unit was not installed for proper condensate drainage.
It also had been raining a lot before the inspection.
Ceiling is still obviously stained and “requires removal of all damaged materials”.
so you Photo-Shop pictures in your reports to manipulate and enhance deficiencies?
Yup, I do.
I’m sure you don’t have the time on your 2 hr 7,000 sf inspections though.
Just post what comes out of the camera, whether you can see anything or not.
In fact, if you can’t see it, you don’t have to report is because it is “not visible”!
If you knew how to use the tools you have, maybe you could raise your prices even more…
Did you know you can take near IR pictures with your digital camera?
Oh never mind, you wouldn’t be interested in that. You would be coming out from behind your foolproof SOP of “I don’t gotta do that”.
Here is one that couldn’t be seen without the thermal camera.
Adjust your camera and “there it be”!
Now don’t pull your hair out. I know this seeing the un-see-able stuff will make you wild!
Hey, I just dropped 6 bills for Adobe Photoshop. Can I do that too?
David,
I only report deficiencies found.
If using a camera to create deficiencies, that are not present, works for you…
Dear Joe,
I’m just funnin with you!
I hope you can take what you dish out!
Now if you want to pull John McKenna strategy on me, I’ll just leave you alone (and talk about you indirectly to your face)…
Don’t start getting stupid on me. I know your better than that!
Joe, I could care less if “anyone” ever used a thermal camera ever again!
Unlike John M., I don’t have anything to loose and “everything” to gain!
If you don’t think it’s in your bag of tricks, wonderful.
Actually I think that anyone that thinks they can keep up with thermal imaging without one deserves recognition.
“NFTIN Certification”
“No Freekin Thermal Imaging Needed”
That is actually great.
I will be the first to say that “most” of what I find, I already see.
I just use it for “documentation”.
These guys that fight with electricians etc… I don’t fight, just look at the picture and tell me I’m making this crap up!
Just like Radon. The problem is built into most houses.
No mitigation needed…
Fix your damn house first!
Yes I do Radon stuff.
Only because my clients think they need it.
Just try to “chill” buddy.
Just don’t try to take on the laws of physics and thermodynamics. They won’t change.
David,
No worries,
I come from a background where I used Infrared to conduct Thermal Scans (Chemical Reactors and Cyclones operating over 1800 Degrees)
over 20 years ago…
The equipment cost then was unbelievable but justifiable as the alternative was a business loss of 3-5 million (Shutdown of Reactor)…
The equipment providers back then were savvy businessman and knew the price point…
Unfortunately, that market diminished over time…
manufacturers sought out new markets / revenue streams…
I hope more Inspectors buy cameras and give the service away for FREE… ( Advertised as included in Home Inspection)
End Result…
Less Inspectors…
Cheaper Equipment…
Win … Win…
Thermal saved my butt last February when I had to sit on my tailgate and make a few notes. It was really cold that day.
To all usint thermal imaging:
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…
When you use the technology on EVERYTHING, you can no longer rely on any Standard of Practice to protect you in the event of an omission in your report, as you have decided to apply technolgy to an ENTIRE inspection, and rely on that TECHNOLOGY to help you see items that are not visual to the naked eye.
The proper and consistent application of technology is fine. I submit that using it without it being part of a documented process can be dangerous to your pocketbook. Not recognizing its shortcomings is also a fatal flaw in reasoning. Exceeding an SOP haphazardly is a surefire way to lose a lawsuit.
I agree with Mr. Hagerty’s way of writing-up the stain on the ceiling. MKy job is still to observe and report. I see what appears to be a defect or an area of concern. I note it, describe it, and report on it.
That’s what the SOP states I am supposed to do. I wonder how many other, hidden defects could have been found in the home which was the subject of this very thread. Sure, you found a venting issue. How many other defects did you miss, which may or may not have been found with the IC?
Start thinking about THAT, and imagine yourself being sued for failing to find EVERYTHING that could have been found using this technology.
I like technology, and believe it has a place in our industry. It complicates things for us when something goes wrong on an inspection. And for that reason, the application of InfraRed needs to be justified, consistent, and part of a real process. That process should be published, as well.
As a Hunter,
I can see the Forest
while …
Many only see the Trees…
That is why proper training is of the utmost importance
Mr Bushart -
I thought I was the ONLY one using an IR to sit on if the steps, decks or front stoops are wet. Nice to know someone has used his IR to save his butt.
Yup, and if your going to fight with every Level III that comes along because they are not qualified to do Home Inspections but still collect $500 after a 2 day course, stating that all that "other stuff is not needed…
The process is written. That IS the point. In some places it’s not being taught or used.
The teachers are not qualified to supervise a “camera owner” never mind teach. But then it’s just $500 (till you get to court and can’t stand on your own two feet).
What really chaps my a s s, about this conversation is people’s perception of increased liability because of something missed!
Well I can fill up this server with pictures of things that you miss on every single inspection!
But you don’t consider it being missed. You consider it “outside the scope of inspection”.
Let’s use one example; inspection of an electric water heater.
How do you know when a water heater is working?
Turn on the water and see if it gets hot?
Look at the electric meter and see if it spins faster after you turn it on for a while?
Can’t open any electric panels.
Can’t insert anything into an electrical panel.
How do you know both elements and all components are functioning?
Only one operates at a time so that throws out the electric meter test.
How do you know if the expansion tank is functioning?
You don’t.
You just write it off as being outside the scope.
So what do you tell your client when they move in and find that their water heater is not working properly?
It could have failed after the inspection?
It’s something we don’t inspect?
We don’t “evaluate” the operation, we just check for leaks and observe installation practices?
Can they sue you?
Does it not come down to “he said, she said”?
What is your answer when a lawyer asks you how much draw down you performed and what was the temperature?
Oh, I just ran all the fixtures for a while and the water was hot…
How about showing a picture like this;
water heater was not turned on; installation was not complete; expansion tank charged. (yes, I know this one is gas)
Time for assessment: 15 seconds.
Lawyers fees saved: $7000
Visual Advertising: Priceless
The guy that follows his SOP. If your going to use Infra Red you better shoot the entire house not just areas you feel might be a problem.
You are correct, Billy.
Joe Farsetta’s point is extremely valid although unpopular among those who want to call themselves “thermographers” and those who try to promote a need to become one for their own personal gain.
The need for a protocol … a written and routinely performed process used, without fail, in absolutely every inspection you conduct in which you will pull out the infrared camera … is essential, not only for a good inspection but to protect yourself as you do them.
Infrared cameras do not detect moisture at all. They simply reflect temperature changes on the observed surface that sometimes indicate the possibility of moisture…showing them exactly where to apply their moisture meters.
When and to what extent to apply this infrared inspection must always be applied consistently or, instead of saving a butt it could cost one if an area is missed. This is where “pointing to the SOP” and disclaiming latent or hidden damage will not work for the “thermographer”. He forfeits that level of protection with his advertising … unless he shows a written and consistently followed protocol that he applies in the use of this technologyl.
Mr Andersen,
Please show me, in ANY association’s SOP, in any State SOP, in ANY industry standard (including a plumbing standard used to evaluate a water heater), where a published and accepted rule is to calculate draw down or water temperature. It doesnt exist, and for good reason; conditions may rapidly change. For that matter, are we now expected to examine the thermostatic settings on the water heater and verify that it is delivering what it says (temperature wise)? Come on.
In the end, it always comes down to “he said, she said”. The only thing the inspector has as a means of protection is his/her signed inspection agreement. That document should reference which standard of practice you follow. In any lawsuit, the FIRST question asked by your carrier’s adjuster is which SOP you use, was the client informed as to which one, and did you follow it. This frames the defensibility of the claim.
Do inspectors get sued for things not covered in the SOP? Sure. This is the driving force behind why many such suits are dismissed.
I submit that your example of water leaking under a threshold, where the inspector has been sued, is defensible under any current SOP if there was no access beneath this area where the inspector could see what is going on. The very definition of a home inspection is a limited, non-invasive, visual assessment of the readily apparent condition of a dwelling at the time of the inspection.
Please re-read this and understand how the dynamics of this definition change once thermographic imaging is literally applied to anything, not as a means of follow-up where something is suspected or found (like high moisture), but just for the sake of shoooting an image.
The next question becomes why did you choose to look here, but not there?
As to your examples of dual elements in a water heater, big deal. That’s like saying that the inspector didnt know every place which was rusted and hidden inside the tank…
Interpretations of images shot may also be challenged. Just as Joe Hagerty’s write-up was dismissed by you, so may your interpretation of an image you shot be challenged by the next hired gun.
While there may be a standard for imaging and even interpretation, there is no ratified standard adopted nationally by any HI association framing how and where IR is applied to each and every home inspection performed. Nor is there any standard for who is qualified to use the camera, or a minimum standard for camera performance.
You purchased the cheapest camera you could find and use it to warm your Butt Cheeks because you have no formal training and don’t know how to use it. I sure am glad that Farnsworth is the only one that follows your advice that way you both can sit at home and complain about not having any inspections. Oh BTW I have never excepted the idea that any SOP was going to keep me out out court. I, Myself and Me keeps me out of court
And you take rainbow colored pictures of horses, service HVAC units and call yourself a home inspector. LOL
You are a joke.
And by the way, genius…SOPs don’t keep people “out of court”. They are not supposed to.