Utility theft or worse?

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#1

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Obviously these pictures show utility theft. But could this also be a safety issue? How much current does the meter actually draw? The wires in these photos are 12 AWG cu.


![](upload://u73LTplPzi7l8F859Yhrpm9csin.jpeg)





--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

#2

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Jeff…


From the garden hose and plantings it's obviously an existing house. The service looks brand new. Was this just upgraded? Anyone living there?

Looks like a sparky threw (and I mean threw) some jumpers in there for temporary power until the utility company supllies the meter. With the cardboard cover in place it looks like there is no power to the house, so yes, it could be dangerous for anyone who might have to work on the place. One of the "jumpers" could easily work loose and energize the whole panel. I see no reason why you wouldn't make a quick phone call to the utility company.

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

#3

Originally Posted By: jpope
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House is occupied and fully powered. The panel has been in place for over two years according to the home owner. They had to install it when they bought the home in order to get the house insured.


My question is;

How much potential current is running through the wires that are in place of the meter? Is the potential enough to overheat them? Or is the meter operated with minimal current?

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

#4

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Hmmm…


well, the jumpers will be handling the full current of any load...but they are very short conductors. Will they overheat? Lemme see...two 12 equals a 24 (just kidding ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) )...this way over my head!

They haven't had a meter for 2 years? Amazing.

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

#5

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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When I first got started in the trade I worked for company’s that did a lot of house service changes, and we would often need to do this in some way as our local power company would not always be out right away with a new meter.


Meters that are very old will not swap into new meter sockets.

That said at most we are taking a day or two, most times I would use doubled solid 10 AWG copper.

This would provide 80 amps capacity, these are "free air" conductors so you use table 310.17 which rates 10 AWG at 40, run twice that is 80.

I am not saying this is right and if this has gone on two years these folks surely know they have not been paying, They will pay now.

Once this is made known to the power company they will back estimate usage and will expect payment.

As to you question on how much load the conductors are subjected to all depends on what is turned on in the house.

I see eight Branch circuits worse possible case they are all 20 amp circuits loaded to 20 amps each all at the same time. (not to likely)

Half of these circuits draw through the right hand jumper the other half through the left hand jumper.

That all being the case the load through one of these jumpers could be any where from 0 to 80 amps.

Having been there for two years already and still looking fresh I would say the load has not approached overloading the wire.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

#6

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Was that a 60A or 100A panel (I’m guessing 100A)?


Also, that looks like a back-fed panel (MD is on of the typical breaker slots) in which case the breaker serving as the Main Disconnect needs to be held down by a special screwed in bracket (retainer clip) that will ensure it cant come out still energized by the service feeders. It looks like that is a manufactured Service Meter/Panel which should have that MD fixed in place or maybe I am just missing the retainer clip on the MD with the small pics.

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#7

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Robert, that looks like a factory placed main breaker, I say that for two reasons.


I see no lugs to feed the bus without the breaker, and Electricians do not usually bend the wire so tight.

If it is a factory breaker it better have the clip or a screw to hold it in place. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Very unimpressive panel and installation, six spaces empty and still every breaker is a twin.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

#8

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob Badger wrote:
... that looks like a factory placed main breaker

It does seem like it. MD may be bolted down (something on the right of the MD too) ... but something just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe just a hack job.

Whats the verdict Jeff?

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#9

Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Quote:
Main Disconnect needs to be held down by a special screwed in bracket (retainer clip) that will ensure it cant come out still energized by the service feeders.


Makes absolute sense...but I didn't know this was required. Even with thread drift you can learn a lot! Thanks.

Robert and Bob...![](upload://bCmtDgkusEMHDE5SFyaXGPGB0IT.jpeg)
I assume that this might be the clip or bolt? (sorry...couldn't get it any clearer).

--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com
#10

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
.. but something just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe just a hack job.


![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) LOL

Yeah same here.

Jeff that probably is the clip, I am not familiar with that particular panel so I will not say I am positive.

I still am amazed this went two years with no meter! ![icon_exclaim.gif](upload://kW92MliyHA8ygoXI0UsgtBSn4ZO.gif)

Might as well through the code reference in.

Quote:
408.16(F) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protection devices or plug-in type-main lug assemblies that are backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel.


Bob

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
#11

Originally Posted By: jpope
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This a bit more clear. It has not been secured. It is a 100A service.


![](upload://AmRmpzofYK9DNWtZcQSrarPSjO8.jpeg)

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

#12

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jpope wrote:
It has not been secured.

Thats a problem and a safety hazard in my book. Usually it's sub-panels that have a "back-fed" main disconnect that isn't secured with the special retainer clip ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#13

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Ok, time for me to look stupid.


Backfed?

#14

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Back fed, using the breaker in reverse, power coming in on the screw terminals and feeding the panel bus.


This only applies to breakers used as "mains" it the branch circuit positions.

It looks like there is some extra plastic between the terminals to me, but I still am not ready to bet on it.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

#15

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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bwiley wrote:
Ok, time for me to look stupid.

No such thing as a dumb question ... okay, well maybe ... just not in this case, since it's not a common HI term ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

I think sparkies might also call it a "back door feeder", but don't quote me on that one ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

The problem with back-fed panels with a main breaker on a bus position is that it could pop out and still be energized. Thats why model codes require the retainer clip to hold it in place ... ![icon_idea.gif](upload://6VKizmOm2U7YYmfXNtFW4XTwFVy.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#16

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thank you. I understand.

#17

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


secured. Notice the little white clip holding it in place.


![](upload://nqETv56xd6IsoZdmDZR1SlDcRmo.jpeg)

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738