Originally Posted By: slong This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Got one for the electricians.
This is a first for me. Home built in the mid 70’s and there is no main breaker or disconnect. Service entrance - meter-panelbox - direct to bus. Should I expect to see this very often? Should there be any major concern in the report other than, there is no disconnect?
Originally Posted By: nlewis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Stewart,
This is not unusual for an older service. The panel box could have been a split bus type, where there is a section of "main" breakers, but no one breaker shuts everything off.
As long as there are six or less breakers to shut everything off, this setup is OK. Obviously, a new panel will not be installed like this, but for an older installation, there's actually nothing wrong with it if there are six or less breakers.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Stewart…
I agree with Neal....a main breaker is not required as long as there are 6 or less breakers that will turn everything off in the house. It is due for a upgrade though so recommend a sparky looks at it...he will probably recommend upgrade.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: nlewis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis,
Is it necessarily due for an upgrade? For instance, today I saw a mid 70's ITE Pushmatic with a split bus. Only main-for-lights and A/C at mains section. This was a 200 amp service. Seemed OK to me.
Hey Dennis, I think that was the first post by you that wasn't "Edited by your favorite..." 
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Neal,
I posted that on safety concerns. Although it is true that a main breaker need not be installed....whenever I look at a house, my main concerns are code issues and safety. So in that case i would recommend a upgrade to a panel with a MB in it. But then that is merely a recommendation and not a standard...or something that I would pose to a homeowner as something that must and/or should be done. Ideally a main breaker panel is what you want to see.....not everyone out there is electrically smart enough to know that they have to turn off this and that to kill power. Put in one means of disconnection either by a main breaker panel or even a fused disconnect and if mr homeowner ever has to kill power to his dwelling....he will thank me for making it easy for him. Such could be quite important in these times with power often going out. With a main breaker..one flip of that switch and everything is dead until power comes back. Without that single flip of the switch, things like air conditioners and freezers, etc. can be left on...and when power comes back....and it isn't quite right....well I hope you get my concerns and why I recommended upgrade. A/C's and freezers and the like can be much more expensive to repair versus upgrading a panel.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis,
What is the law of probability for frying a freezer because of a power outage. If I had to replace the freezer or frig every time my power went out, I would truly be in deep SH**. 
How many people do you think actually take the time to turn off the breaker until the power comes back on?
Joe Myers
[This message has been edited by Brian Hannigan (edited November 05, 2003).]
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The panel rating is usually on the data sticker either on the door or inside the panel. I use this rating, instead of the breaker. I found a panel rated for a maximum of 150 amps with a 200 amp main breaker the other day!
Originally Posted By: nlewis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
John,
You would have to judge the size of the service entrance cables to determine the ampacity if there is no label in the panel and no rating printed on the cable. I would probably document it as estimated or as a minimum rating to be conservative.
Dennis,
I can understand your point of view as a safety concern without a main breaker. That's fine if you come along and recommend to the owner to install a MB. But, as a H.I. if I recommend installing a MB on an inspection report, an electrician will tell the seller it's not necessary and the H.I. doesn't know what the f**k he is talking about.
Or if I tell the buyer that the main breaker is not necessary,after he moves in and just say he calls an electriician for an unrelated repair. That electrician tells the new owner that he recommends a main breaker. Now the OWNER calls up and says I didn't know what the f**k I was talking about because I didn't tell him about the lack of the MB. Such is the quandary of the home inspector. 
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
John,
I can tell you that the correct answer on the NHIE is "take the rating of the main breaker, the entrance cable, and the panel rating and use the least of the three". Still doesn't answer your question though, does it? 
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The only way to determine the ampacity of a service is to determine the wire size…PERIOD! Anything else you use will not tell you what the actual ampacity is. If you are unsure what the wire size is and unsure what the size is with either copper or aluminum wire…then you need to have it inspected by a electrician. The rating found on the panel is only the rating for the enclosre and means only that the main feeders can be at the rating of the enclosure or less. The main breaker might be 100 amps but if it is fed with 6 gauge…it is no longer a 100 amp panel. What it is is a 60 amp panel with a oversized main breaker. So regardless of what the enclosure states, what the main breaker states, and what the home owner states…the only physical check any one can make to determine the actual ampacity of the service is the wire size and type of wire.
This can be difficult to do. The most common way to determine wire size is to look for markings on the wire itself. However, to do this it may be necessary to handle the wire inside of the panel and if you are unaware of the hazards that exist in doing this or unfamiliar with what you can safely touch in a panel.....recommend it to be checked per a sparky. If it is SE cable, the jacket on the outside of the cable is typically stamped or marked with what type of wire it is and what size wire it is. This can be done somewhat safely because the SE cable is outside of the panel itself. Another way to determine wire size would be with a gauge, however, the gauge is non conductive, it would not be a safe practice for a HI to do, inside of any panel. Sometimes you can remove the LB cover on the outside of the house and get lucky enough that the wire markings are visible there, too. Otherwise, if you cannot find markings on the wire, nothing else will tell you what the actual ampacity is. Your best bet is not to guess either....but rather recommend it be verified by a qualified electrician.
Now for the main breaker issue. The only thing you should be saying is....recommending that a qualified electrician inspect and determine if the panel is in accordance with local and national codes. If the sparky then decides the panel should be upgraded, it is then on the sparky and not the HI. Don't say anything in regards to a lack of a main breaker to the customer. It is not in your scope of work as a HI. It is though, in the scope of work for a sparky. This way the homeowner can't come back to you, the HI, and say that you are screwed up. All you did was put the decision to upgrade in the lap of a qualified sparky.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
However, to do this it may be necessary to handle the wire inside of the panel and if you are unaware of the hazards that exist in doing this or unfamiliar with what you can safely touch in a panel.....
Is it possible for you to post a picture of a SE panel with arrows pointing to the hot areas. There are new inspectors out there that are gaining access to these panels and do not know what can be touched. I know this sounds dangerous and nobody should stick their hands in these boxes, but it's good to know what specific areas to stay away from. Electricians know what can be touched, but new inspectors are curious.
I can assist in a final diagram if you'de like. We have plenty of SE pics here in this forum.
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis,
Could you include with the picture something like a "top ten list of not so obvious defects to look for". Maybe even a top ten obvious, I'm sure the newer guys could use it, and some of us old folk might learn something too.
Originally Posted By: nlewis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis, while you’re at it, how about a short dissertation on what happens when you touch the main lug with your thumb and the ground bar with the index finger. Jeez, guys give Dennis a break; I’m sure he’s exhausted after a long day of drilling holes and fishin’ them wires!
IMO If you don't know what NOT to touch in the panel you shouldn't be taking the cover off to begin with.
Originally Posted By: jonofrey This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis Bozek wrote:
The only way to determine the ampacity of a service is to determine the wire size....PERIOD! Anything else you use will not tell you what the actual ampacity is.
Holy smokes Bozer! Now I have to check the friggin service entrance wire size and not rely on the main breaker rating! I think that's a pretty good heads up really. I've never thought of it that way. Most panels that I look at have a marked main breaker. Understand that I usually don't have to look at the 100 year old sh!t that Iggy has to deal with. 
Originally Posted By: slong This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’d be careful about instructing rookies to touch anything in a panel box guys. I don’t consider myself an electrician by any means but I was an industrial electrician for a couple of years. I learned respect for electricity after being hugged by 460 volts more than once. (you’d think I learned a lesson) You count yourself fortunate when your knees feel like jello and you’re still going. I can tell stories of panel boxes blowing up just by opening them. Screws falling around, heavy moisture, the cover itself falling into the bus.
I say keep your hands out of there. Check it with a voltage tester for what ever reason, or check for what some handyman has screwed up and report on it. Then very carefully put the safety cover back on. The only thing that a HI should have in an electrical panel is their eyes.
I’m all for the pics though. Anything like that can be helpful.
Originally Posted By: jonofrey This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I don’t see it slong. Looks more informative than directive. What’s your point?
What exactly is an "Industrial electrician"? Sounds like a gopher told to fix the gizmo, if you ask me. Too much stuff blowing up because of gophers fixin gizmo's
(you’d think I learned a lesson) You count yourself fortunate when your knees feel like jello and you’re still going. I can tell stories of panel boxes blowing up just by opening them. Screws falling around, heavy moisture, the cover itself falling into the bus.