What about Radon?

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21

Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
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WOW you leave for a few days and all hell breaks loose.


First I accused no one directly of doing anything ilegal.

Second You do need to be crtified in PA t do radon testing. The course that is required does not cover all the information tat is on the test,and the informatin is way more involved then is neccesary for the radon test that is going to be performed. The test for certificatio is ridiculously hrd. But it is the law in PA t b certified and if one want to be professionl one get certified.

Just today Ben and I did an insection and thee were two E-Perm canisters diploid incorectly. The companythat was doing the test did not have there certification # listed on the test sheet witch is requiered and they were not listed on the DEP Web site. This is not uncomon in our area. I'm not saying that this person doing the test is a home inspector. What I was trying to say is that in PA there seems tbe more people doing the testing for radon than are certified. And soe are probably home inspectors. I was also try to encourage all inspectors to get eduactin ad certifications is all areas that they offer testin in weather it is rquiered or not. That would help the inspector, the client, and the association or associactions that the inspector belongs to.

As far as weather or not radon is harmful, or how harmful it is , will probably always be debated. The reason some people may be more resilient to cancer is probable do to many factors. Like genetics for one example. I do not believe it should be up to the inspector to determine if radon is harmful to, or will be harmful to there clients. ( the present alone may still affect the property value) And I do not believe that thinking that radon is not harmful is justifcation for not meeting your states requierments. ( if there are any)

I also ment that as a young association we need to try harder and be better.

22

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Dan,


I did not say you accused anyone directly. I am saying that as members of this association we should assume they are compliant unless proven otherwise. To do so is demeaning not only to the members but also to the association.

I know many inspectors that are radon certified and do not advertise the radon certification number on any of their literature. While the state may require this, it certainly does not mean they are performing testing illegally.

Education and training are an important part of being a successful home inspector. Common sense is even more important and you will never get that at any college or training course. If you are not sure, tell eveyone you are not sure and get a professional opinion. This will certainly save you from finding out if you were correct in court.

Joe Myers

23

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Dan, Good info in your last post. The fact about the courses out there is they give you way too much uneeded info and not enough what you need for the actual test which you’re right is pretty hard. As far as not being certified and deploying canisters, The state gives you an ID card with your cert# that you are supposed to wear when performing radon testing. Also, you are to send reports periodically to them listing all the testing and locations you’ve done. Customers should always ask for the tester’s certification and call the PaDEP to verify it. For people who may be deploying and or reading these tests without certification especially for real estate transactions are bound to get caught sooner or later because RE agencies sometimes get copies of the tests and whoever signs them is in for a big surprise because the DEP follows up on this regularly. And, they do not take it lightly when they find out! Bob

24

Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
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Bob your right. We do keep records as requiered and we do all the blanks, and send out blank test for back ground mesurements. I have to admit that I do not ware my ID but I do keep it in teh truck.


And Joe you are mistaken my friend. If your not printing your ID # on the reports and on the instuction sheets you are doing the test illigaly. See Rasdon protocals.

25

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Dan,


Sorry, this subject is really boring me. I am willing to concede that you and Ben are the only company around here that is doing the testing legally if you are willing to concede that the rest of us are certified and really do not give a sh** about putting the certification number on the test results page. OK?

Joe Myers

26

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Remember, Guys…


This forum is not only for inspectors within PA, but nationwide. Many states, NY included, do not require certification of any type to perform radon testing. Funny, as insanely restrictive as NY is on other things, radon is apparently not one of them.

Maybe it should be... just had someone tell me that the inspector representing the buyer of a property he owns came to do a radon test. He must have had some sort of CRM unit. He let ir run for 2-hours, then proudly gave the results to his clients. 2-hours... Like I said, maybe mandatory certification is a good thing...

Joe Farsetta

27

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe F, Sorry, did’nt mean to make you feel left out. I read your 1st post stating NY is a non-cert radon State but yet you’re certified? Is that just precautionary or a strong insight of things to come? I guess the previous posts were more directed to Pa members as It’s easy to tell what state members are from and Pa is a Cert state. It’s also just as easy to find out if one is certified. I’d be interested to know about the claims in your 1st post regarding EPA’s disinterest in radon and where these ASHI guys heard it was removed from the carcinogens list in 98’. I could find nothing in regards to this, in fact, the most recent info I found states that the U.S.EPA has declared the Month of Jan, 2003 National Radon Action Month and still claim it is a definite health risk. Here is a link to the EPA and some of the latest happenings. http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/rnactionmonth.html Thanks, Bob

28

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Bob,


You're absolutely right. I could find nothing to support their contention. Radon IS a documented health risk, no doubt about it. Nice thing is that it can be removed. Problem is that lots of folks dismiss it as bunk.

I believe the confusion comes from the fact that the EPA performs no training or certs on its own anymore. There are two orgs that administrate and certify. National Radon Safety Board is one of them.

As far as state-mandated certification is concerned, the 2 hour radon test I mentioned in the previous thread was conducted by a full ASHI member. This is not an slap as ASHI. Like I said many times before, if you're a bad inspector you're a bad inspector, or if you're mis-informed you're mis-informed. Whatever the cast, the 2 hour test is neither valid nor recognized. He may have bulled a sample, but it can in no way substitute a valid 48-hour test. What's next, a magic wand?

My view is that an unsuspecting homeowner planning to finish his basement for his kids needs to know if Radon is present. If that person is lulled into a false sense of security, and someone was to develop cancer in 15 or 20 years due to a soft-sell or a bogus radon test, I couldn't live with myself.

If certs aren't needed, there's still no excuse for a lack of education on the subject. The HI who was informing the other HIs in class that radon was delisted, is "mold" certified. He doesn't see the need to call an industrial hygenist and ignores the fact that the EPA has no official position yet as to acceptable/unacceptable levels of mold in the home. This guy is also "lead" certified, and claims that the swab tests and most "over the counter" lead tests are no longer valid. When I asked him if the chips or the dust are more dangerous, he had no comment. Whan I asked if a weekly washdown of sills ans sashes was an effective measure to reduce a lead paint hazzard on windows, he told me he wasn't a lead assessor, but that was his next certification.

This guy is intelligent and an experienced HI. I dont know where he gets this stuff, but he preaches it as Gospel.

One final point. I mentioned a report on the EPA site regarding radon. It references a Finnish study debunking the radon hazzard. On one breath, the EPA states that the Finnish study was too small to be conclusive. In the other, it opens the door for folks to extrapolate, and conclude that the EPA's studies made too many assumptions and was skewed in favor of listing radon as a carcinogen without conclusive evidence. If the EPA wants to keep radon as a carcinogen, it should end its posting with statements to the effect that it is still listed, and quote the stats, in a clear no-nonsense manner.

Joe

29

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe F, I imagine NY and other states will soon be following suit in having radon testers/mitigators certified in which case they should to protect the public from guys like your mister 2 hour CRM test over there. He’s obviously clueless and/or just taking money from naive homebuyers. People have a right to know if there may be a potentially dangerous environment in the home they’re planning on living in for quite some time. They have a right to protect their family however they so deem fit. And, they have a right to obtain this info from honest governed people who do it in their best interest. It’s simple, whether a state requires cert. or not is not the issue, obviously there are those who will do it anyway! Mainly, it’s a moral issue, Anyone who knows nothing about the subject but yet still offers to do it for customers is WRONG! They are cheating their customers and those who do it honestly.


P.S. Obviously NACHI placed a section entitled "Radon Discussion" to help those that are interested in RADON. Those who find the topic boring are either in the wrong discussion or the wrong business!

30

Originally Posted By: jremas
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deleted

31

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Jeff,


There is a slew of information on radon. You can start with the EPA's own site. Radon is the #2 leading cause of lung cancer next to cigarette smoke. If you smoke and are also exposed to radon, your risk is even higher. Radon is no joke. Believe it or not, the old charcoal cannister means of testing is still the most accurate. Whomever thinks that radon is a joke, need only think about the fates of the women who used to paint radium on watch dials. They would lick the paint brush and dip it into the raduim, paunt, then lick again. Most developed cancer. Well, radon is a deriviiitive of the same substance. 'Nuff said...

Joe

32

Originally Posted By: rwills
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As far as Jeff’s statement about the realtor who thinks radon is a government scam Jeff, I’m sure you’ll run across agents who claim this because the real issue is they view it as another possible deterrent or delay in the sale process therefore threatening their sale. Ask them what facts they know about it and you’ll get no response. When people get defensive on this issue it shows they know nothing about it and have ulterior motives. Joe F stated some good radon facts in the last post however, one is debatable. He states Quote:“Believe it or not, the old charcoal cannister means of testing is still the most accurate”. The answer is “not”. A 1994 Intercomparison study by the U.S. Dept of Energy shows the most accurate (short term) test is the Electret Ion Chamber (EPERM) at 91% accuracy followed by CRM at 86% then Activated Carbon (Charcoal) at 81% and Alpha Tracks at 64%. I have the studies and will email anyone interested in it. Charcoal is subject to too many other conditions including moisture, background radiation, etc. I do work for relo companies that require nothing but Eperms or CRM’s. CRM’s have better tamperproof qualities than Eperms…Bob

33

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob,


You sound like an add for E-Perms and CRM's. Try not to mislead anyone though.

We place the charcoal canisters and several of them have had opted for additional testing. In those cases the radon testing was done with E-Perms and CRM's. The results they came back with were less than 1/10th of 1% of a difference. Meaning if we came in at 3.3 pci/L they came back with 3.4 pci/L.

I llike the CRM's because they give you a better overall view of the radon levels at different times of the day, which is important when the levels are close to remediation levels. This type of testing often reveals much higher radon levels at given periods of the day but the average radon level remains close to what a canister will achieve.

I don't know about you or anyone else but the canisters are close enough in accuracy to the E-Perms and CRM's for me NOT to justify the high expense of buying the E-Perm and CRM equipment.

Joe Myers

34

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe M, I’m not endorsing Eperms or CRM’s, I use Eperms but I don’t even own a CRM! Furthermore, I am not misleading anyone, but merely stating the facts on actual studies showing the comparison of different testing procedures. I also am not knocking canisters "though I would not personally use them ", and by all means work within the budget. But just as it’s a proven fact “not theory” that radon causes cancer. it’s also proven that Eperms are even more accurate than CRM’s. Just a few examples: U.S.EPA uses Eperms to measure ambient radon levels for their “Citizens Guide to Radon”- Used by the IAEA for its 60 Country global radon study- U.S. Postal Service and other government agencies have specified Eperms in their radon surveys of public properties in the U.S. And since you mentioned it, here’s my ad! Eperm measurements cost as little a $1.00 per measurement-That’s Right-1(One) Dollar. How’s that for an investment?

35

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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To Whom It May Concern:


While you have good intention you are mislead by the facts. The facts state NO DIRECT link to radon and cancer. Is what the facts state is that where you find high radon levels the risk of cancer increases. Please do not loose sight of that, if you are you are misinforming your clients.

I have been through this numerous times with smoking and cancer. Not only can they not prove that smoking causes cancer, they can not prove that high levels of radon causes cancer.

Bob, if the EPA states that radon causes cancer in that publication they are dead wrong. No one knows what causes cancer. If you or the EPA have found a direct link to radon and cancer you should share it with the rest of the world.

It really does not make it true just because you read it somewhere!

Joe Myers

P.S. And these are the guys that are telling you E-Perms are more accurate than what? Pun Intended....

36

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe M, The only person that is mislead here is you! If you can’t accept scientific studies proving radon causes cancer then don’t -NO ONE CARES.


FACT:The only health effect which has been definitively linked with radon exposure is lung cancer. Lung cancer would usually occur years (5-25) after exposure. There is no evidence that other respiratory diseases, such as asthma, are caused by radon exposure and there is no evidence that children are at any greater risk of radon induced lung cancer than adults…You want an issue that they can’t prove is a health risk, try MOLD. You already stated that you find the radon subject boring so why not leave it to the others who apparently are interested and concerned about it?


Furthermore, I will continue stating the FACTS about radon for those interested and not waste my time debating with someone who is obviously clueless. If anyone is misleading people it’s you who don’t know the facts but continue to offer testing to people anyway. By the way Joe, you claimed you were certified, what is your PaDEP cert#? Mine is 2144. People have a right to ask if your certified, but of course you knew that!

37

Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
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Bob my # is 2109


Joe if you took one of the EPA aproved classes you would know who is saying what about radon, and what studies there findings were based on.

I think any one who does no realize that smoking is a major contrinbuter to the number of cancer deaths in this county is deniing the facts. This subject has been well documented, just like radon. I think if you had your clients intrest at hart you would be suppling them with the EPA fact about radon not miss leading people.

38

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Well now and you two thought you were smart. If you read the evidence correctly and clearly Bob and Dan you will find out that the radon situation is just like the smoking situation. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT CAUSES CANCER! Maybe you believe the EPA and exactly what they say. I just ask that you call the EPA and confirm the evidence they have that radon causes cancer. BTW…I paid attention in class, it is the sister products of radon which they claim are causing cancer, not the radon gas itself, but you both knew that. (Was it U236?)


I will make this easy for both of you. Find me one person, heaven, earth or the outer limits that can prove that radon causes cancer and you will have beaten me. I say that you can not prove that radon causes cancer because it is the by products of radon that increases your risk. They have not proven anything, nor have you. Increased awareness should be on everyones agenda but then again everything scientists do to white mice causes some kind of cancer, now doesn't it? ![icon_razz.gif](upload://rytL63tLPMQHkufGmMVcuHnsuWJ.gif)

Joe Myers (HE HE HE HE)

39

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Guys, Guys, Guys…


We're supposed to be building bridges here, not planting mine fields. I am certified by the EPA and NRSB. I have taken the courses and passed the tests. I know the data, and am not in a position to dispute the findings. Tests show a correlation, period. That doesn't mean that people in the insustry cant dispute the findings, on a personal basis.

The important thing to remember here is that if we are retained to perform a radon test, that despite what our personal feelings on the matter is, that we owe it to our clients to perform the test according to protocol, have the results prepared by a certified lab, and report the results to our clients in a clear and professional manner.

That is all I can say. Folks hate paying taxes, but we still pay them. We complain and rattle our sabres, but not while in the presence of the IRS! We're smarter than that. I try and calm my clients down about the cause and effect of long-term exposure to radon. If they have it, it can be mitigated. If they dont care about it, they dont order the test. If it really scares them, I suggest we run a second test once they are in the home, and can control the things that can skew the results.

The importance here, that despite our differences, whether founded or unfounded, that we never lose sight of our obligations to our customers. Proper testing is contingent upon following proper protocol. One way to eliminate excuses for not following those protocols is training. Like I said, there is no cert for radon testing here in NY. I WANTED to understand it and know how to conduct a proper test. But that's just me...

Joe FArsetta

40

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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[quote=“Joe Farsetta”]Guys, Guys, Guys…


Tests show a correlation, period.



I think you just restated exactly what I said at least three times.

Anyway, its been fun but I think I have rattled their cage enough for now. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Joe Myers