What do you call these? Besides bad idea.

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#1

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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I know the piture is blurry, tried to do a close up macro so you could see it better.


Looks like a device that fits onto a breaker that you could use to keep the breaker from flipping. I can't believe someone would manufacture something like this.

What do you call this contraption?

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/DSC00860.jpg

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#2

Originally Posted By: pdacey
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John,


It looks like a lockout hasp to me. It's mostly used in commercial. When a service tech. works on a piece of machinery they are supposed to put a lock on the breaker so noone can accidentily turn it on while he's working.

It also looks like it's installed wrong.

--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

#3

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I’d call it a hazard.

–
Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
#4

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Not only could it be a safety hazard, but also a bad idea … icon_lol.gif

–
Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#5

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Could be a breaker lock out device as already mentioned.


OSHA and the NEC require these when you want to use a breaker as the disconnect.

They will accept a pad lock.

I carry in my truck a LOTO (Lock Out Tag Out) kit, this has the required tags and locks to lock off almost anything.

Or and these are perfectly acceptable a breaker lock.

A breaker lock is designed to keep a breaker from being manually shut off.

No matter what you do to a breaker handle it will still trip, that is a UL requirement.

Breaker locks are required for dedicated circuits feeding emergency lighting and the feeds to fire alarm panels many times.

An optional use of breaker locks comes in when the breakers are used daily to turn the lights on and off in commercial locations.

We will put breaker locks on all breakers except the lights, you do not want people shutting off necessary circuits.

Taking another look at the picture it looks to me like this could be used to lock on or lock off the breaker, nice unit. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

#6

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Why would someone put a LOTO on a breaker like that unless they were trying to keep the breaker from tripping?

–
Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#7

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Well I do not know, but the fact remains you can not do anything to a breaker handle to keep it from tripping, the design is such that a trip will occur even if you hot glue the handle stationary. icon_eek.gif


Here is part of 700.12(E)

Quote:
shall be permitted if it originates from the same panelboard as that of the normal lighting circuits and is provided with a lock-on feature.


All the breaker makers have breaker lock ons or offs both are code compliant.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
#8

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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It was on the breaker for the air condenser unit which was on the roof and had no visible means of service disconnect. Per Bob’s previous comment that would explain it, Robert. I thought the same thing.


Thanks Bob and all. Now I know what the hell it is and yes, it could be swung either way.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#9

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob B. is correct.


These are used to lock a breaker 'off' when the breaker is used as the disconnect.

These are designed such that they cannot be locked with the breaker 'on', the lock only fits in when the breaker handle is in the 'off' position. At least with all the ones I've seen.

I see the all too regularly. I say that because I feel it is much safer to have the disconnect a true disconnect and next to the equipment being worked on. What is to stop someone from removing the panel and flipping the breaker 'on', thereby electrocuting the person working on the equipment. Well, what, other than the common sense which should come with "WHAT IS THAT? I'd better go check out the xxxxx equipment before I remove it and turn the breaker on." Much better to have the disconnect nearby.

But they are allowed, yes.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

#10

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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In a past life in shopping malls, some common area electrical panels were located in service hallways. As many of the breakers controlled the common area lighting, the security guards used the breakers to turn the lights on and off.


We put locks similar to these on certain breakers (read emergency lighting, alarm panels, computer circuits, etc) to keep them from accidentally shutting them off when they weren't supposed to. It keeps the breaker from being manually shut off, but has no effect on the overload trip. As Bob said, you could hotglue the handle in the on position and the breaker will still trip.

Quite common in commercial settings to use breakers in the panel as switches.

Of course, we also used the standard OSHA LOTO for working on circuits and equipment.

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

#11

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I have seen LOTO’s with a half dozen locks on commercial engineering inspections … gets quite involved, especially for the guy filling out the OSHA paperwork … icon_rolleyes.gif


My initial gut reaction was that it was put there by "Harry Homeowner" to fix a nuisance trip, even though it may not keep the breaker from tripping. Different situation, but it reminded me of the old penny in the fuse socket ...

After Bob's post I looked a little more closely at the pic, and noticed that it says "AC" marked below the breaker. May have been put there by an AC tech working on the system. I think Pat may have hit the nail on the head right off the bat. But then again ...... never underestimate "Harry's" ability to "fix" a problem, even if it doesn't work ...

John ... I seem to remember you had another one with a stick jambed in the breaker. How do you and Blaine get all the "winners" ...

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#12

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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These are not illegal;


as Bob wrote:
A breaker lock is designed to keep a breaker from being manually shut off.

Quote:
No matter what you do to a breaker handle it will still trip, that is a UL requirement.

Breaker locks are required for dedicated circuits feeding emergency lighting and the feeds to fire alarm panels many times.

An optional use of breaker locks comes in when the breakers are used daily to turn the lights on and off in commercial locations.

We will put breaker locks on all breakers except the lights, you do not want people shutting off necessary circuits.


That is the best explanation that I would define.

You see this in factories, offices, hospitals......mostly commercial.

IT DOSE NOT PREVENT THE BREAKER FROM TRIPPING>>>>!
IT DOES PREVENT AND SET OF FINGERS FROM TURNING OFF THE BREAKER AND CREATING A PROBLEM>>>>>

I have built buildings with this outlined in electrical specs for pumps, alarms, emergency lighting and yes A/C condensate and condensor units.

This is something that is more so seen in multi family or commercial/industrial settings.

The breaker will still trip if there is a problem but only a QUALIFIED PERSONNEL should be in that box to begin with. (CODE)

(most of the time you place these items in a seperate panel maked emegency and leave it locked but that is not always a full proof or correct way by code. Now we get into qualified and maintenance on site.....thisis commercail info
Bob
#13

Originally Posted By: dhartke
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I have done a lot of LOTO, both electrical and mechanical. Generally speaking, lockout will not prevent malicious changing of the position. It is mostly intended to prevent accidental movement or to send a message, “Somebody really wants this to remain in this position”. A sicko can carry around a bolt cutter and a few wrenches and wreck most any Lockout. Sometimes breakaway locks are used for emergency removal like on a sprinkler system. They can be identified by grooves around the lock shank. Smack it with a metal object and the shank will shatter.

#14

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I am not saying it’s illegal, but what is a breaker lock doing on an AC circuit breaker in a residential panel, holding it in the on position? That would make me very suspicious of a possible overload (maybe on startup) that may have been causing breaker trips.


Was the breaker rating and wire size checked to make sure they agree, and are sufficient for the nameplate rating of the AC unit? Maybe it's just me being suspicious, but something smells funny here.

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

#15

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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I was suspicious too, Robert. The breaker was 40 amps. Wire looked like 8 AWG, so no problem there. The Condenser unit was so old that the plate was worn so I couldn’t tell the maximum breaker rating. Looked like a three ton unit so the 40 amps sounds about right for such an old unit.


I ran the unit for a solid hour with no problem.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

#16

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Looks to me like someone removed the dead front cover and the breaker lock fell out, then they just stuck it back any old where. Usually see them on dishwashers and other things like that when there is no switch near the equipment. Definitely safer than putting a sign on the panel saying “don’t turn on”. The wife would do it every time. “Honey, why’s the power off?” ZAP icon_eek.gif

#17

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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roconnor wrote:
I am not saying it's illegal, but what is a breaker lock doing on an AC circuit breaker in a residential panel, holding it in the on position? That would make me very suspicious of a possible overload (maybe on startup) that may have been causing breaker trips.


Robert,

Those do not "hold the breaker on", the breaker can trip with the handles tied together and held captive, the internal mechanism still trips.

Those are designed and intended to hold the breaker handles in the 'off' position, to serve as the disconnect for the a/c.

While I've never seen them used in commercial buildings to prevent unauthorized persons from turning them off, I suppose they could be used for that, but ... then you've lost your safety edge because if there was an emergency when those breakers needed to be flipped off, you would not be able to remove power to whatever was causing the problems.

I've inspected many commercial buildings and the last thing I want to see is something locked. You know how long it takes to find someone with the keys, if they are even on-site? And then how many keys that person has to try before they get it unlocked?

Man, the entire building would have burned down before they could find person with the key, find the right key, remove the lock, then turn the breaker to off.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
#18

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jpeck wrote:
Robert ... Those do not "hold the breaker on", the breaker can trip with the handles tied together and held captive, the internal mechanism still trips.

Jerry ... Bob already covered that, and I said it looks like it's "holding the breaker in the on position" ... and it does. You gotta lighten up and maybe not get caught up in semantics so much, cause you are missing peoples points.

Even if that is something common in commercial panels to keep breakers from being switched to the off position, that is a residential panel ... so it looks out of place and is suspicious in my book.

Maybe that old compressor is starting to dog and cause occasional startup nuisance trips, so Harry Homeowner installed this handy little thing he found which he "thought" might help. Then again, maybe it's left over from a tech working on the system if installed differently. That might make sense if the required disconnect at the unit wasn't present for the tech to kill power, and everything else checks out.

I probably would have tried to call the AC tech if I saw a service sticker or something, just to solve the "mystery" ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
#19

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Bringing this to the forum was a great idea. It allows us to educate each other and those that have the experience to stay fresh.


The bottom line on this issue for me would be the following.

* I would take a picture and place it in the report.
* I would make note that this is a suspicious us of a product not normally found in a residential application and the A/C might be protected from being turned off for unknown reasons. Further information needed by home owner, and/or consultation with A/C service technician. Asking for the use to be more clearly defined as to why it is being used.
* I would have asked the owner if present, why it was there, and place a quote in my report.

That's my opinion:

Sometimes homeowners see things at work or use items not intended for residential use and not in the right method of intent. There might have very well been a tripping issue, or maybe some anal person who loves there A/C and won't be with out it. It is to unimaginable that it does not look normal. sop point it out, move on, we've done our job....Like they say in the barber shop, NEXT

Okay, What would you do and how would you handle it?

agree or disagree
Bob P.

#20

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Quote:
I would make note that this is a suspicious us of a product not normally found in a residential application and the A/C might be protected from being turned off for unknown reasons.


If you were doing residential inspections where I used to in Northern VA, or now where I am in FL, you wouldn't call it suspicious. Breaker locks are not only common, but are required on any electric item which doesn't have a switch or a disconnect to prevent the breaker from being turned on when someone is working on the equipment, usually out of sight of the main panel. Usually seen here on dishwashers, water heaters and A/C units.