What's fair?

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41

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Vickie Lewis wrote:
You've claimed you've done your job--that you aren't responsible for looking at appliances, understanding electrical codes, or knowing how old or what kind of condition roofs are in.

If that is true, then your colleagues will tell me.

Okay ... As an engineer, inspector, and HI educator with over 20 years of experience I will tell you that is true, and the other inspectors were most likely just blowing smoke.

1. You can not tell the condition of an appliance unless you disassemble it, or it's obviously shot. Some inspectors check some basic things and that they work as a courtesy, but many just exclude appliances from inspections to avoid misunderstandings about the accuracy of any appliance assessments (and why most HI association guidelines exclude appliances).

2. Some HI's thoroughly understand electrical codes, but that is not the norm for most ... or expected of them.

3. You can NOT accurately tell the age of a roof just from looking at it. I have seen older roofing systems that were in unusually good condition, and then others that were not too old with premature failure (with age based on documented roof replacement ... not a guess). There are no manufacturer labels on roofing systems, so what are the other guys doing ... carbon dating the material. I dont think so. Sounds like blowing more smoke to me ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

It would probably be helpful for you to read the NACHI SOP also ... CLICK HERE ... and here is one from another national HI organization ... CLICK HERE. Notice that both exclude appliances, both exclude code evaluations (electrical or otherwise), and both say nothing about providing the age of a roofing system.

Sounds like you found an inspector who is just very straight forward, and not trying to blow smoke to impress you (or give you a false sense of security as to what they are actually doing) ... which doesn't do anybody any good.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
42

Originally Posted By: Vickie Lewis
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Dear all,


Thanks for your replies.

Just so you know: I did email the contact for nachi as well as leave a voice mail for him on the phone number provided. I left my personal cell phone number. I did not ever receive a response from the organization.

Something else that came up during the inspection. There is a deck off of the second floor of the house. One of the four support beams is bowed. I asked Dan if that was a concern. He thought it should be replaced. I agreed. I asked him how that would be done. He said that his friend, could come over, place two beams on each side of the bent beam and slip a new beam in. That it could be done in less than an hour.

Hmmm. Seemed too simple to me. So I called two of my girlfriends--they both exclaimed, "You can't do that! Doesn't this guy know you have to pour footers?" (One woman is an architect, the other an experienced re-habber.)

Clearly, he did not. I called a contractor, and and builder--they were horrified. Following Dan's guidelines would have created a major safety hazard.

I find this frightening, and Dan left himself wide open for a lawsuit.

Folks, like it or not, when people hire a home inspector, they are relying on your expertise.

I asked four realtors about appliances--they all said, of course, home inspectors check out appliances. They were appalled that he did not check them. And so, at least in this geographical area, that is expected.

I am in the process of buying an apartment building, and will hire a home inspector to go through the 25 units. I can't imagine paying someone to do that and not have them check the appliances.



You guys--you HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! PEOPLE'S LIVES AND THE SAFETY OF THEIR FAMILES ARE AT STAKE.

I hope that you will all email this guy offline and encourage him to find another line of work--or to take this line more seriously and start to learn something. He makes all of you look bad.

Again, I appreciate the insight.

Any of you who defended this inspector and what he did--if you don't have a steady stream of referrals coming to your door, you've got your answer.
I would like to suggest you read a book called, "Raving Fans". Creating raving fans isn't about doing the requirements--it's about doing a good job.

If you had a client this unhappy, would you be proud? Maybe something you all need to think about is feeling good about what you do--and not focus on "I met the requirements."

I know that this guy is focused on money per hour--but life is about more than that. Just look at the Olympic athletes. They don't go to the gym and 'do what they are required to do.' They put themselves into their jobs.

Maybe this is a good time to think about what your business and association stands for--is it doing the minimum--or is it delivering excellent results?

Right now, what I'm hearing is grab the money and run.

Again, thanks for the input.

btw, I've been a small business owner for 15 years. For several years, I worked as a small business consultant--I routinely helped small biz owners double their businesses--starting at six figures--within a year. I'm not just blowing smoke with these ideas.

Please take this input seriously, for safety sake. If you don't know this stuff, you can kill people, because the people who hire you expect you to know this. It's serious. Please. You are playing with people's lives.



[b][/b]

43

Originally Posted By: dfrend
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I have defended myself and all further defense will be refered to my attorney.

44

Originally Posted By: tallen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
place two beams on each side of the bent beam and slip a new beam in.


The two beams are only meant to support the structure while a new beam is installed in place of the old one. I am assuming that a footer is already in place where the original beam is. After the new beam is installed the temporary support beams are then removed.

This is common practice is it not?

--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005
45

Originally Posted By: Kenneth Sitzes
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Hi,


Vickie Lewis around in my area that is the way you replace a bad support.
I'm would hope that was done by the builder of the deck had already place the footing that your girlfriend is talking about. They should of pour that before the first post was ever set. The two post that Dan is talking about is to help support the corner of the deck to remove & replace the old post the same day with on one using the deck while the work is being done. Maybe you have no ideal want he was talking about or just a misunderstanding of want was said. ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)

46

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I am not a Realtor, do not play one on TV, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but Ms. Lewis, if this transaction is causing you so much consternation, don’t buy the house. Find another home, hire an inspector you want to work with, follow him or her around, take notes, pay attention to exactly what the inspector is saying, pay him or her, get the report and read it carefully, then make your decision about the home.


That is the way a real estate transaction normally works. From what I understand you signed and agreement, stopped payment on the check, and no report was issued. Move on. And please don't email me again on the subject.

47

Originally Posted By: cmccann
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I agree Blaine, I’ve been reading her posts, and quite frankly it’s time to stop pusse footing around. Ms. Lewis, To me you have taken a lot the wrong way, you must be one of those people that can’t be satisfied and always looking for the easy way out. Do us all a favor pi$$ or get off the pot. Listening to your dribble about a fellow inspector who happens to be respected in this organization grows tiresome. Don’t go away mad, just go away. icon_lol.gif

–
NACHI MAB!

48

Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I don’t see the first post where Ms. Lewis made her accusations.


I will address some of the responses.


I check appliances. All of the built in ones. It may not be a requirement, but in my area, it is the norm. For those of you that don't and then use the sop as your defence, how much time does it take to check the appliances?

I start on the outside, move to the inside and open the house up and find everything I am going to need to operate items in the house(gfis, switches, etc.) turn the heat on, pull the electric panel, and after replacing the eclectic panel and turning on the a/c, I start the dishwasher and put it on the longest cycle.

Later, when I am typing the report and a Realtor asks "can't you do that at your office so we can leave"?. I tell them "we have to wait for the dishwasher to finish, so we can either stare intently at the dishwasher waiting for it to finish or I can finish the report"!

In my sops which exceed all of the associations sops, it states what appliances I inspect and the ones I don't. There is no debate. It also states the inspector will inspect bla bla bla and what the inspector WILL NOT inspect. I changed the wishy washy "not required" to "will not". It is there in black and white and again, there is no debate.

Quote:
We don't measure water temperature.


You can't be serious! How do you determine if the water heater is functioning? I measure the water temperature at every fixture, including the toilets. I also take the temperature of the refrigerator and the freezer and all of those readings are in the report. I also take the water pressure reading and that reading is in the report as well.

Although the inspection in question may have met the sops, did it meet the standard of other inspectors in the area?

As for Ms. Lewis, I think she expected more from this inspection due to her previous inspection experience(s). Why she decided to come here and post is beyond me. She should have tried to work things out with her inspector. After she stopped payment, I would have nothing more to do with her. Stopping payment of a check over a certain amount is an arrestable offence in some places.

From what I can gather, it sounds like the inspection was performed to the sops. Just not to the liking of the client. As for the repair method for the post, it sounds like Ms. Lewis has a case of selective amnesia or just misunderstood what the inspector was saying.

--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
49

Originally Posted By: dfrend
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Thanks for the input on my previous post.

The appropriate legal measures have been taken.

vl


Been deleted. That's why you can't read her original post. If you want I will email you a copy. Or the copy she sent to NACHI.
50

Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Daniel,


Please do.


Thanks,

–
Eric Van De Ven


Owner/Inspector


Magnum Inspections Inc.


I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!


www.magnuminspections.com

51

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
I also take the temperature of the refrigerator and the freezer and all of those readings are in the report.


Eric,

Im not being sarcastic here, I'm just curious why you do this as the temperatures are adjustable for personal tastes anyway? I just look for Ice in the freezer, and feel the can of beer to make sure it's cold ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)
52

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
We don't measure water temperature.


You can't be serious! How do you determine if the water heater is functioning?

I turn the hot side of the faucets on and wait a minute. If it's working hot water comes out.

I measure the water temperature at every fixture, including the toilets.

What in the world does that tell you about the toilets?

Although the inspection in question may have met the sops, did it meet the standard of other inspectors in the area?

If I met the standards of the other inspectors in my area I could do an inspection in half the time it takes me now.
53

Originally Posted By: mbartels
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I think he just wants in on that 25 unit apartment complex. icon_wink.gif

–
www.overbrookhomeinspection.com


It’s not over till you’re underground

54

Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Eric,

I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm just curious why you do this as the temperatures are adjustable for personal tastes anyway? I just look for Ice in the freezer, and feel the can of beer to make sure it's cold


Perhaps you should contact the FDA and find out the temperature that food should be kept at to prevent spoilage in the refrigerator. I'll save you the time: 40 degrees.

Do you know that a faulty door seal can change the temperature up to 8 degrees?

Also, in the event that after the client takes possession of the property and the refrigerator isn't working properly, you have the setting and temperature in writing. Pretty hard to beat if you had to go to court.

After the family has been sick because their refrigerator wasn't cold enough to keep their meat from gong bad, when they wanted someone to pay the bill, they called the home inspector. How did you test the refrigerator? I felt a beer your honor! You know, they do make thermometers which are probably more accurate than your hand. I think if you were to check the temperature, a thermometer would be a little bit more professional than your hand. Unless of course, you are part of the collective!

Quote:
What in the world does that tell you about the toilets?


Guess you have never found a toilet plumbed with hot water?
I have found eight. Maybe it is something new to look for!

--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
55

Originally Posted By: Guest
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I shoot the temps in the freezer and refrigerator with an infra red unit. It takes less than 10 seconds.


I turn the oven on to 350 and check the temp of the rack 15 minutes or so later. It takes less than ten seconds.

I run the dishwasher, and all the burners on the stove and check to make sure the broiler gets hot. The whole shebang takes something less than 2 minutes to perform and the client gets the wow factor from the laser on temp gizmo.

I report it all very non scientifcally but keep all the data in my notes.

The oven gets hot, the burners worked, the dishwasher completed a cleaning cycle and the dishes looked cleaner at the end.( I'll even add detergent if the seller's OK with it.)
The refrigerator was cold, the freezer was colder and the disposer made disposer sounds when I flicked the switch. That's pretty much how I report it.

I have a disclaimer for appliances that says they may be checked ONLY to see if they respond to controls and in no way am I declaring them functional, suitable or even reasonably attractive.

56

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Eric,


Thank you for your sarcastic answer. I was asking why as a simple question.

I check appliances for function, not for degree of function. I too have found hot water going to toilets. Hot water is relatively easy to find without taking it's temperature, unless you are trying to report that it is above 125 degrees and a safety concern. So far (knock on wood) no one has called me saying the temperature on their fridge wasn't right. But then, maybe because that is specifically disclaimed in the report.

57

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Also, in the event that after the client takes possession of the property and the refrigerator isn’t working properly, you have the setting and temperature in writing. Pretty hard to beat if you had to go to court.


The fact that we aren't required to speak to that at all works pretty good too.

After the family has been sick because their refrigerator wasn't cold enough to keep their meat from gong bad, when they wanted someone to pay the bill, they called the home inspector. How did you test the refrigerator? I felt a beer your honor! You know, they do make thermometers which are probably more accurate than your hand. I think if you were to check the temperature, a thermometer would be a little bit more professional than your hand. Unless of course, you are part of the collective!

That's just way out in left field. Totally beyond the scope and not our responsibilty from the word "go".

Quote:
What in the world does that tell you about the toilets?


Guess you have never found a toilet plumbed with hot water?
I have found eight. Maybe it is something new to look for!

I can't say that I have, but I could tell without a thermometer. I've found a few faucets plumbed backwards without one.

I'm all for anyone going beyond standards in any way they feel comfortable with, I do it on every inspection in my own ways. But let's not imply that everyone else should be doing exactly what we would do beyond standards, or that they're wide open for a lawsuit if they don't.
Taint' so.

58

Originally Posted By: kbowles
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Man, This is GOOD stuff. Quick someone come up with something else before the flames die down. (and does he set up an infra-red laser level to check floors for being level?) Dangit, see what you guys did, now you have dragged me into this.


Kevin

Life's a journey, not a destination.
Aerosmith

59

Originally Posted By: mboehmer
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


FYI - In Texas you must check appliances - disposal/dishwasher/range hood/rannge-stove/oven/cooktop, trash compactors, even built in microwaves - only temperature recording requirement is for the oven.

60

Originally Posted By: evandeven
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Sorry for my sarcastic response! It was just that the questions were posted in a sarcastic manner, so I responded in the same manner.


Everyone is free to inspect what they want the way they want. To my way of thinking, if I am going to test something, I try to use the best tools and the most accurate methods. If you are comfortable using your hand on a beer to determine if the refrigerator is cooling, fine. I could do the same thing however, if I am going to grab a beer, I am going to drink it!

The laser thermometer I use was 90 bucks and it is very good for measuring temperatures of several things. Here are a few: water temperature, dryer temperature, oven temperature, refrigerator/freezer temperature, a/c temperature, heating temperature, and in drag racing, track/tire temperature. It also is a great cat toy!

50% of the time when I am using the thermometer, someone asks what is that? I tell them and they usually respond, cool.
Those types of reactions from clients, sellers, or realtors are a marketing tool in my opinion. Sort of like handwritten report vs computer generated report.

Quote:
(and does he set up an infra-red laser level to check floors for being level?)

No, I use a low tech tool for that. A golf ball!

Quote:
Posted: Sep 10, 2004 1:38 PM Post subject:




Also, in the event that after the client takes possession of the property and the refrigerator isn't working properly, you have the setting and temperature in writing. Pretty hard to beat if you had to go to court.

The fact that we aren't required to speak to that at all works pretty good too.

After the family has been sick because their refrigerator wasn't cold enough to keep their meat from gong bad, when they wanted someone to pay the bill, they called the home inspector. How did you test the refrigerator? I felt a beer your honor! You know, they do make thermometers which are probably more accurate than your hand. I think if you were to check the temperature, a thermometer would be a little bit more professional than your hand. Unless of course, you are part of the collective!

That's just way out in left field. Totally beyond the scope and not our responsibility from the word "go".


Some of you aren't privy to certain types of information that I am. My fiancee is a registered dietician. During her schooling and internship, she got to find out about all sorts of bacteria and other gremlins that we ingest every day and don't even know it. A lot of sickness is related to improper storage of food, as in improper temperature, leaving food out too long before preparation, and improper cooking. As a result, I got to find out about these things as well, usually reluctantly!

Although some can say that they don't check appliances, and I have no problem with that, food safety is equally important in my eyes as gfi protection, pressure relief valves or any other safety items we check.

Quote:
Hot water is relatively easy to find without taking it's temperature, unless you are trying to report that it is above 125 degrees and a safety concern.


Here is a scenario:
You check the water temperature at the beginning of the inspection in the kitchen sink and it is 125 degrees. As you go around checking various fixtures, you find out that 15 minutes later, in the hall bathroom sink, the temperature is 110 degrees. Fifteen minutes after that, while checking the master bathroom sink, the temperature is 108 degrees. When you return to the kitchen sink, the temperature is now 102 degrees.
Would your hand be accurate enough to determine the different temperatures?
What would these readings indicate?

--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com