Whitewashing Reports!!

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1

Originally Posted By: rking
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Hello All,


Thought I would post this, it might help a few of the newbies, and get a few raised eyebrows from the veterans.

I recently did an inspection on a "year round cottage" (as it was advertised) for a real estate office I had never worked with previously.
After I had completed my inspection, I was told I did a good, thorough job!
Now, I am being criticized for being too thorough!
I should have treated it as a cottage and performed my inspection accordingly!!!
The vendor insists the shingles are only five years old, and they may be, but 75% of the roof was covered in pine needles and maple leaves (patriotism I guess!). It also appeared as though it was either the second, or third layer of shingles on the roof and as such, the roof covering (shingles) had worn out prematurely and I reported it that way.
There was a woodstove with no label and improper combustible clearances.
A masonry fireplace that was not high enough, had no ashpit or cleanout, no lintel above the opening, and improper hearth configuration (ceramic tiles on combustible flooring).
My client was/is extremely happy with my inspection.
The realtor dissatisfied because they may lose the sale because of my thoroughness on a 'cottage'!
The way I see it is too bad for you (the realtor).
I did my job properly, professionally and kept my a&% out of trouble.
I will most likely not get another inspection from that particular real estate office but there are plenty of others who will appreciate my honesty and thoroughness.
Whew, so long....time for a coffee!

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

2

Originally Posted By: lmartin
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Morning Robert , I’d say you were right on doing the inspection the way you called it , for if down the road it was purchased and the new owner went to get insurance , he most likely could not, because of the defects.


And as a Reatlor , I would want the report to be accurate. So any buyers I would have wouldn’t have that problem .


Very Good ,


Lester Martin

3

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Robert,


Two questions.
1. How high does a fireplace have to be to be OK?
2. Why is a fireplace cleanout necessary? What about a fireplace in the basement; where would you put the cleanout?

Neal

4

Originally Posted By: rking
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Neal,


A fireplace, or any chimney, is required to be three feet higher than the roof at it's penetration point and two feet higher than anything within 10' horizontally.
Most fireplaces have cleanouts, even a lot of fireplaces located in the basement have cleanouts, albeit higher than the firebox, but they are there.
This fireplace was installed in an addition approximately 5' above ground, typically these fireplaces have an ashpit below the fireplace and a cleanout door a little above the door (4"-6").
The concrete top on this particular fireplace was spalled, crumbling and split right down the middle. It did not have a 2" lip around the perimeter and therefore no capillary break to prevent water from running down the stones and penetrating and damaging the mortar joints, which it had. Inside their was moisture around a lot of the mortar joints that coincided with the moisture on the exterior.

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

5

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Robert,


I believe you meant to say that the chimney structure should be 3 feet above the highest point of the roof within a 10 foot radius. Is that correct?

Joe Myers

6

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Joe,


Robert is referring to the 10-2 rule for the chimney. I was busting his chops because he said the FIREPLACE was not high enough.
BTW I have never seen a basement fireplace with a cleanout. If the cleanout is higher than the fireplace itself, what sense does that make.
I have never used the cleanout in my fireplace to get rid of the ashes. I used to just shovel them into a bucket and out the door; it just seems easier that way.

7

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Neal,


Opps, you see there is a reason I don't quote codes! icon_biggrin.gif I thought it was 3 feet above the highest point in the roof within a 3 foot radius.

Joe Myers

8

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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The 10-2-3 Rule


The 10-3-2 Rule


The 2-10-3 Rule


The 2-3-10 Rule


The 3-2-10 Rule


The 3-10-2 Rule


Seen it written every which way.

Bottom line is the top of the chimney or top of any gas vent must be:

3 feet above the roof at the penetration point.
2 feet higher than anything within a 10 foot horizontal circle.

But is the 3 feet measurement from the low side of the chimney or the high side of the chimney.

I've seen it argued both ways, but believe the high side measurement is the correct one.

Your thoughts?

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

9

Originally Posted By: rking
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Joe M.,


Yeah that is what I meant. To me though it is all the same, maybe I better change my phraseology a bit though. I could see some smarta%s getting me on that one, thanks!

And hey, what is the topic drift here?? icon_smile.gif eusa_naughty.gif

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

10

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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rking wrote:
Joe M.,

I could see some smarta%s getting me on that one, thanks!



Smarta%s?? Why would one worry about any smarta%s's on this board? eusa_whistle.gif

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.
11

Originally Posted By: rking
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John,


I meant a smarta%s client!!!!! eusa_eh.gif
You know "The chimney needs to be 18" higher" so the client extends the chimney and calls me and says "Now do you want to come and extend the structure appropriately?" eusa_doh.gif

--
Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large

12

Originally Posted By: tadams
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Here’s the visual…


http://www.nachi.org/tips/1006.gif

13

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Erby: As a code certified inspector, I’d like to point out that the 3’ rule is to be measured in a tangent parallel to the diagonal plane of the cross-sectional field of the side of the chimney farthest away from the flat portion of the roof. I hope that demystifies and clarifies the whole thing.


Dan Bowers (Kansas City)

14

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Quote:
Here's the visual...

http://www.nachi.org/tips/1006.gif


In plain english, that should answer all the questions on chimney heights. Right?

Keep in mind. In my area, wood burning stoves do not get the 2/10 option. Must be 3', no matter what.

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
15

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Dan,


Having additional knowledge of your qualifications, experience, and contributions to the Home Inspection industry, I have great respect for that.

But, holy crap, do you really expect even a reasonably competent person, let alone Joe Homeowner, to instantly understand what the heck you are talking about.

While it makes you sound very intelligent, neither IRC R1001.6 Masonry Chimneys - Termination nor IRC M1804.2 Vents - Type L Vent contain your high faluting language.

Would you decipher it for the common man.

High Side or Low side?

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

16

Originally Posted By: ltrower
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I like the picture better and am totally lost on the explination. Yeah Joe, what did the say. Now 3-2-10 I understand. icon_rolleyes.gif


Lee Trower

17

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Erby - I was pulling someone’s leg and tring to make us stop and think about relativity. I recently sat through a very spirited 1 hour and 45 minute discussion between two long time inspectors as they each explained to a class of relatively new inspectors how and where to check for carbon monoxide. It occurred to me after they were both done talking that most reasonably intelligent inspectors were more confused after their conversation than before it. The same with the 3-2-10 rule - hence my post which sounded ponderous and said nothing. The graphic was excellant and seems to demystify it for all.


Dan Bowers (Kansas City)

18

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Dan,


Up until now, I never needed a dictionary to translate words added to the posts here. Today, I am breaking it out. I'm not as edumicated as you are.

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

19

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Well, you succeeded. I thought it was odd that someone with your capacities wrote something like that.


I'm sure David wasn't the only one pulling out the dictionary, thesaurus and other reference material to figure out that you would normally condense all of those words into two words.

HIGH SIDE!

--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky
www.b4uclose.com

20

Originally Posted By: rwand
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Robert


In reply to your original story, you are working for your client, and he is paying for your services, you duty is to report to him in an objective manner the findings. Your findings are for his sole use to discern whether or not he should or should not purchase the said property the contractual terms regarding the inspection vis-a-vis the Purchase Agreement. Realtors who have this sort of attitude are short changing themselves and their clients. Clients know when they're are being hoodwinked by agents, and likely this agent will suffer from poor reputation because he is overlooking the clients needs and is only seeking his commission, good agents do not think this way. As you know you cannot serve two masters, the Realtor is not one of your masters, they may think they are but they are not.

On the other hand a good inspector will not be an alarmist, and will explain things to the client based on the expectations of the client.

By the way inspectors in Ontario have become quasi insurance agents and unfortunately if you don't tell a client about the latest home insurance issues, you may be on the end of a complaint from your client cause some agents don't know about insurance issues especially the low earners or part timers. Savvy agents wil have already likely discussed the insurance issues with their clients, such as 60 amp, K&T, woodstoves, galvanized pipe, oil tanks, etc. and place clauses such as, "subject to purchaser obtaining home insurance".

Do what you know to be right, as you would like to be treated, and explain to your client in everyday language what you find and mean. That will go a long way in assisting with your reputation which unfortunately will and is built on experience.

Personally I would have stated your findings as you have described.

Cheers

--
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905

http://www.raymondwand.ca
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (R.H.I.)