Wind Mitigation Questions

What part of “approved laminate” don’t you understand? Again…for the 100th time…with caps…LAMINATORS TO DO RECIEVE APPROVALS, LAMINATES DO…HELLO?

I agree with Brad on this one, I believe most of those labels consist with MDCA forced entry testing. I usually look for a couple of things on the windows and door.

  1. Fl Approval Number and/or Miami Dade NOA
  2. ASTM E1886 and ASTM E1996
  3. Miami Dade TAS 201, 202, 203
  4. Impact Resistance

When you look up some of the older windows they will give you old testing standards for forced entry. Some were tested to Miami Dade PA 202.

This is how I have been doing it. Do what the form says, and the form says to look for this.

The OIR-B1-1802 does not reference “forced entry”, or as it’s properly called ASTM F842, 1233, and SS-STD-01.01. The standards your listed are for missile impact, not forced entry.

Also, windows/doors labeled MDCA have meet one of three different classifications,or all of them, this is redundant.

Specifically, what we are TRYING to teach you is that just because the window label seems to imply impact, doesn’t mean it is. And it’s your job to verify…hence, Uniform Mitigation Verification Inspection Form.



If the NOA is for the window most of the time this will include the frame and the glazing. You have to read it. On doors it is common for the wrong glazing to be installed and the whole assembly not be impact rated. It is possible to replace the glazing in an impact window with unrated glazing also. So “knocking” on the glazing does have some relevance. In my experience I have seen glazing that was rated and not etched, I have not seen tempered glass that was impact rated.

So John, are you saying that all bathroom shower enclosures and bathroom glass is impact rated becasue it is tempered. And what about glass is stairwells?

No the exact opposite.

There is no such thing as Impact Rated Glass that does not have an etching. It does not exist. All Codes have required it.

There is no such thing as Safety Glass without an etching. It does not exist. All Codes have required it.

There is such a thing as tempered glass without an etching but it can only be used in decorative doors and windows for human impact.

Impact glass can be Annealed, Heat Treated, or Tempered. All are laminated. All are approved.

Knocking on safety glass, tempered glass or any laminated glass can all sound the same. Only single pane glass sounds different. It has no relevance and there is no specification or approval for knocking on glass. You must compare two NOA’s. One for the assembly, and then one for the glass and verify that the glass is the one in the NOA for missile impact. The manufacturer will specify one, two, or three types of glass for each window. One for Large Missile / Small Missile, one for Small Missile, and one for Non-Impact. All three types of glass may be present in the Windows NOA. So then you have to determine which was used.

The reason they make the same model in different impact ratings is so that a contractor can save money in a high rise condo condition where the first three floors are Large Missile, the next three are small missile and the 7th story and up are non impact and all the windows look the same. And yes, Contractors do mix them in on floors because their installers do not know any better.

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So if my clients have all the paperwork for the new windows that state they are impact rated and I can’t see the etching. You believe I should mark it as not rated, even though when I knock on it, it does not sound like single pane?

My point is very simple, not all etchings are visible/readable. If it is single/double pane glass or tempered my job is done. I can tell the difference between single pane, double pane, laminated and tempered glass, are you saying others can not? Can you show me a tempered glass that is NOT laminated that IS impact rated, I have yet to find one.

John -

First anyone can obtain a NOA off the website that can show an impact window and show you it.

Second, you are there to check for impact resistant glass, not single/double or tempered glass.

Third, all impact glass is laminated. Whether it is Annealed, Heat Treated or Tempered.

Not all Safety Glass is Laminated.
Not all Laminated glass is approved impact glass.
Not all approved impact glass is approved large missile.

What makes glass impact glass, and for what type of impact, is the thickness of the interlayer. If it is .09 thick it is most likely impact rated. You cannot tap the glass and tell the difference between .030, .035, .060, and .090 interlayer thickness. All four have MDCA, only .090 has MDCA for large missile. You will find all four. The .030 is general purpose and .090 is Hurricane Impact. Only the etching in combination with the glass NOA will tell you this.

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My understanding is that some manufacturers use large laminated panels from the glazing contractor and cut them to size for their windows, thus leaving out the etching on some of them. These panels would be made with annealed glass and not tempered. I have not seen any laminated glazing made with tempered glass either. Tempered glass does not hold up well when broken. It might exist on some store front glass or curtain walls, but not standard windows that I know of.

Windows that utilize the same impact frame with different glazing options will usually have a different unit assembly Approval Number / NOA for each option. You only get that information from the frame label or (large rating sticker on the glass - only there for AHJ inspection).

I am pretty sure there is a federal mandate that dictates all tempered (safety glass) to be etched on every pane. If you can back up some of those statements, please let us know.

The answer is located in R308 of the Florida Building Code: Residential…you know, the code you are not required to know but have to reference everytime you need an answer to a question…

You can find the answer yourself…

I most do it like John in this case.

Robert R. Sheppard writes:

Translation: “I don’t know where it is and can’t find it.”

Actually, this is the perfect opportunity for that “education department” you speak of to chime in…

well?

Translation: “I looked again, and still can’t find it.”

It’s not something to joke about Nick, your members are reaching out for information and all you can do is come back with this?

This is a perfect opportunity to show your membership what you are made of, to educate them and help them learn…isn’t that what you have been saying internachi is about?

Instead, you’re going to play this little game back and forth…real mature Nick. I would expect nothing less…

Translation: “I was so sure it was in there.”

…I get it, still bitter about being schooled on your exam…you gotta let it go man…

Translation: “Maybe it isn’t in there.”

Translation: “yes”