Wind Mitigation Questions

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions on wind mits:

Is there any other type of glass besides laminated safety glass that is impact rated?

Does the ANSI Z97.1 specification have any relevance to a wind mitigation inspection?

Doe the CPSC 16 CFR 1201 1/11 specification have any relevance to a wind mitigation inspection?

If the MCDA NOA can be found on the glass etching, is that relevant for the entire assembly or just the glass panel?

Is any Butacite aside from .09 impact rated?

Is there a difference between large missile rating and “large & small” missile rated?

If a glass panel is not labeled LSG or laminated safety glass, is it safe to assume that an NOA search will prove that the assembly is not impact rated?

Thanks

No to all questions. Stick to the frame label and listed standards that match what’s on the 1802. Approval numbers are even better. Once you get more experience, it will all come together.

Stick to the frame label. Really. If I had done that I could have been held liable for over half a million dollars in window replacements.

It is possible to buy and impact rated door/window and not have impact rated glass. It happens all the time with doors and sidelights.

I almost hate to ask but if the door or window is impact rated but it does not have impact glass, where does that fall on the 1802? I’m guessing it does not comply, right?

Michael,
I applaud you for your choice of questions and your eagerness to learn, you are the type of inspector our industry needs to change our reputation as home inspectors are seldom seen as educated. But alas, you are looking for a well of knowledge and coming up with an empty bucket……I can only assume the well here is not deep enough to answer the questions you have.

The answers to your questions are not simply “yes” or “no”, this was taught to me by my mentors as they realized it did no good to just give the answer if you didn’t fully understand why it was the answer. I will answer your question in as much detail as I can, hopefully this will help guide you along the process of understanding the incomprehensible at times.

[FONT=Calibri]1. [/FONT]Is there any other type of glass besides laminated safety glass that is impact rated?

Answer: I hope not, lol. For the sake of argument, I’ll assume you mean missile/debris impact. The process of adhering two or more plates of glass together is call “laminating”, the layer of adhesive can be many different types and thicknesses. This process is important as laminated glass will, or should, stay in place once broken or shattered. You can see where this is important from a safety standpoint, but the process of laminating helped produce missile/debris impact windows as the interlayed changed and the process was refined.

A few years back, maybe 15 or so, a gentleman named Piscatelli produced a laminated glazing 7 layers thick that would stop a Vulcan 20mm round…twice. It’s the process of laminating the plates of glass together that gives it the strength and resistance to impact. One step further, Approvals and NOA’s are not given to laminators, they are given to laminates. That’s why the approvals say “Impact Rating: None” when they actually are impact rated when complete with the assembly. Also, the laminate manufacturer must submit a list of “Approved vendors” that specifies who is qualified and allowed to produce the laminated glazing with their approval.

The laminated glazing must be manufactured AND labeled in accordance with the laminate’s approval or it is not valid, the laminated glazing must also be listed in the fenestration manufacturer’s approval. If any of these conditions are not meet, the complete assembly is in violation and therefore invalid.

[FONT=Calibri]2. [/FONT]Can the glass portion of laminated safety glass be annealed, tempered and heat-treated?

I’m going to assume again you mean “or” instead of “and”.

Answer: The process of laminating glass produces safety glass, the process of tempering glass produces safety glass. Laminated glass shutters but stays together, tempered glass shatters into a million pieces in a harmless fashion. You can see why laminated glazing is used for missile/debris impact while tempered glass is not (not to my knowledge anyway). Heat-strengthened glass is used in the laminating process by many glazing manufacturers, I have seen it listed in several places and would be required to be etched as such.

Heat-strengthened glazing by itself is not missile/debris impact rated, it’s usually design pressure rated only as the process of super-heating the glazing produces great strength. The approval for the glazing is required in all cases to determine the process and how it is to be labeled, with exceptions. Contrary to popular belief, a NOA or approval for a window or door is not required to confirm compliance with the Florida Building Code (herein referenced as the FBC). Per the FBC, local and regional approval must be offered. These approval must be third party tested and accompanied with an Engineers document confirming compliance with the FBC. I have come across this before with multi-million dollar structures that have custom doors. A visit to the Building Department is the ONLY way to confirm this!

[FONT=Calibri]3. [/FONT]Does the ANSI Z97.1 specification have any relevance to a wind mitigation inspection?

[FONT=Calibri]4. [/FONT]Doe the CPSC 16 CFR 1201 1/11 specification have any relevance to a wind mitigation inspection?

Answer: I’ll answer these as one being that they represent different testing standards but are designed to protect against human impact and are pretty much integral. ANSI Z97.1 was brought about in the late 60’s, 1968 to be exact. The American National Standards Institute realized the importance glazing and the impacts with humans had, people were literally being almost cut in half when running into sliding doors. Something had to change. Upon producing the standard they set out a nationwide campaign to promote the adoption into code, with not much success.

By 1974, roughly 33 states had adopted the standard into their model building codes. In 1972 the Consumer Product Safety Commission got involved and produced 16 CFR 1201. This had a little more bite and was adopted by the Standard Building Code in 1977.

How does this relate to an OIR-B1-1802? Your licensure was part of a determination that unlicensed practice of your profession would in fact be detrimental to the public health, safety, and general welfare. Hence, you are licensed to make sure that is protected. Part of that might, maybe, be inclusive of making sure people and children do not get cut in half with non-safe glazing, such as those not tested for one of the national standards listed above. Many structures I inspect have this type of non-impact rated glazing….even new structures.

These are not the only standards for safety impact, you will also see SGCC and AAMA 506, although the last one is more for missile/debris impact and not human.

[FONT=Calibri]5. [/FONT]If the MCDA NOA can be found on the glass etching, is that relevant for the entire assembly or just the glass panel?

Answer: Just the glazing, as I mentioned above the two must be integral and listed together on the fenestration manufacturer’s approval. In reference, this is the opposite of determining the glazing is not impact rated when the assembly has a label signaling MDCA approval. MDCA approval could be for one of three different classifications, in order to be large missile impact rated and approved for use in accordance with the FBC, it would need all three. The gazing being etched with MDCA or DCA is NOT an indication that the glazing is missile impact rated….period.

In all cases the NOA or Approval for the glazing must be researched to determine the level of the approval, there is not short-cut. Also, if any part of the etching is not in compliance with the laminate approval, it is invalid. As previously stated, a window or door does not actually need and approval from the state or MDCA to be complaint with the FBC, they can be approved locally and be complaint.

[FONT=Calibri]6. [/FONT]Is any Butacite aside from .09 impact rated?

Answer: Yes, from the Dupont website:
What are the thicknesses of DuPont interlayers?
DuPont™ SentryGlas® ionoplast interlayers start at 0.035 in. (0.90 mm) for general safety glass and hurricane-rated glass; 0.060 in. (1.56 mm) for architectural glazing such as canopies, railings and facades; and up to .090 in. (2.28 mm) and above for large missile impact an high security bomb blast systems. The typical thicknesses of Butacite® PVB are 0.030 in. (0.78 mm) for general-purpose safety glazing, .060 in. (1.56 mm) for burglar resistance, bomb blast resistance, and overhead glazing laminates made with heat-treated glasses; and .090 in. (2.28 mm) for hurricane-rated systems.

The interlayer can be many different sizes to meet many different classifications, this is why it’s so important to do your research on a fenestration assembly. YOU CAN NOT DETERMINE IMPACT RATING WITHOUT RESEARCHING THE DOCUMENTATION!

Also, Butacite is not the only interlayer that is approved. Check the documentation I sent you a few days back as it lists some of the different type and abbreviations.

[FONT=Calibri]7. [/FONT]Is there a difference between large missile rating and “large & small” missile rated?

Answer: Most definitely, the missile sizes and impact standards for failure are completely different. A fenestration that has meet both has been tested for both, while a fenestration only tested for one or the other has not. But, you can use large missile rated products in place of small missile products….the difference in requirement related to height. Anything above 30’ only requires small missile impact, anything below 30’ requires large (9lbs.).

When you get to 60’, no impact protection is required, only design pressure. So, the main difference is, interchangeability……large supersedes small and small is only required above 30’.

[FONT=Calibri]8. [/FONT]If a glass panel is not labeled LSG or laminated safety glass, is it safe to assume that an NOA search will prove that the assembly is not impact rated?

Answer: It depends on the height, see above as it may not be required. If you run into glazing that is not listed as laminated…run! To answer your question exactly as it’s worded, no. Remember, the assembly and the glazing (fenestration) are tested as one but are approved separately. The assembly may be rated but have non-impact glazing installed and therefore be not impact rated as the lesser qualifies the complete fenestration. It’s the opposite of having a rated assembly with non-rated glazing.

I hope this helps answer some of your questions, I was divided in time as Real Madrid was Playing Barcelona during the writing of this. Hey, maybe Nick’s Education Department will finally show up and answer some of the questions……I won’t hold my breath.

Be well and good luck, let me know if you need any more help.

1 Like

I don’t where you guys are getting your information, but the frame label is the definitive verification for an impact resistant assembly, not just the etching on the glass. If the unit has been retrofitted by a manufacturer or a homeowner, then the approval has been nullified. If I am wrong then please enlighten me.

I’ll let Michael answer that. He knows the answer…

Read the post above yours. Robert just enlightened you

That post was not there when I posted…he is on delayed status. And he does not enlighten me in the least bit with copy and paste convoluted jargon that just confuses everybody. I know what I am doing.

Obviously not. Where did you get your information from. A sticker on the window frame does not guarantee that the glass is impact rated. It says the frame is impact rated. Did you not read wsiegel’s post about that. He found stickers on custome build doors, but none of the glass was impact glass. How do you explain that one away.

Oh, and by the way, Robert did not cut and paste that. He did the research and wrote that with the help of another expert in the field.

I don’t blame you for asking this question considering all the views spewed out here. Quick answer: It does not comply. If the assembly has non-rated glazing, then it’s not impact resistant, is it? The glazing and the frame (and the installation, by the way) has to be rated as an assembly. This needs to be verified by documentation, valid permits, or unit labeling…that is really all there is to it.

Sounds like he had one outlier situation. I hear about that house all the time with him. We all know that can happen, where labels were fraudulently placed on the units or the glazing was retrofitted…hell I don’t know and that doesn’t happen often. I look at both the etchings and the labels, but my verification is going to be with the label that usually has the approval on it where I can look that up. Hell, some rated units don’t have any glazing etchings on them…what now.

Thats and easy one. No etching, no credit. How do you know what type of glass is in there. The knuckle test certainly will not be proof of anything.

*You said: I don’t where you guys are getting your information.
*The information is readily available contained in the product approvals of the frames, glass, and the Florida Building Code. You must use all three.

You said: but the frame label is the definitive verification for an impact resistant assembly
No, the frame label only indicates the window is approved for installation in accordance with the associated NOA. You have to look at the NOA to see if the approval is for, large missile, small missile, non-impact requiring shutters, or any combination. There are hundreds of approved windows that have a NOA and MDCA that are NOT impact resistant.

You said: not just the etching on the glass.
Correct, you have to check the NOA for the glass and the window assembly to know.

You said: If the unit has been retrofitted by a manufacturer or a homeowner, then the approval has been nullified.
Correct

*You said: If I am wrong then please enlighten me. *
You are only partially wrong in that the product approval sticker on the window does not tell you if the assembly is impact rated. You have to check the NOA for both the glass and the assembly for that.

You can’t be this uneducated, it’ impossible.

That’s not entirely true. If a homeowner had impact windows installed chances are they have documentation of some kind because they spent a lot of money. Have documented impact ratings from the paper work included with the windows as well as sent to me from the dealer or manufacturer. It’s not rocket science. Experience with windows goes along way.

There are some window manufacturers that use local approvals which are compliant with the 1802. These windows do not have etchings on all of their windows. Everything else is in order. Of course, these would not be approved in the HVHZ, but they do comply here. Just because you don’t have an etching does not mean they are not laminated glass.

It’s actually entirely true…they just didn’t teach you that in the MSFH program…

The information is there…I can’t make you understand it.