Originally Posted By: bgentry This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
David, jump in here any time if you’re on.
I believe what DV is saying is that there is no protection anywhere for the second panel, not even in the second panel itself.
However, even if there is protection in the second panel, the #8 wires feeding it are still wrong. No matter how I look at this, the only way this would not be wrong is if the taps were on the load side. Even then, there may be some scrutinizing needed to make sure wire sizes are adequate.
Let me go back and read the whole thread, maybe I missed something here.
-- Bradley S. Gentry
Superior Home Inspection, LLC
Harrisonburg, Charlottesville, &
Elkton, VA
www.superiorllc.net
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
David:
I believe that you have discovered an: "Illegal Supply Side Connection"
Quote:
240.2 Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.
The lugs you describe are not designed for that so called "TAP" use, they represent the place where the service entrance conductors supply are terminated, and you probably found a back fed main that is supposed to be secured.
Line side is used in the trade and in the code, but for this example "supply side" is the correct language.
The following proves the the installation you describe is wrong.
FOR GUIDANCE AND REFERENCE ONLY:
Quote:
230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service Disconnect.
Only the following equipment shall be permitted to be connected to the supply side of the service disconnecting means:
(1) Cable limiters or other current-limiting devices.
(2) Meters, meter sockets, or meter disconnect switches nominally rated not in excess of 600 volts, provided all metal housings and service enclosures are grounded.
(3) Instrument transformers (current and voltage), high-impedance shunts, load management devices, and surge arresters.
(4) Taps used only to supply load management devices, circuits for standby power systems, fire pump equipment, and fire and sprinkler alarms, if provided with service equipment and installed in accordance with requirements for service-entrance conductors.
(5) Solar photovoltaic systems, fuel cell systems, or interconnected electric power production sources.
(6) Control circuits for power-operable service disconnecting means, if suitable overcurrent protection and disconnecting means are provided.
(7) Ground-fault protection systems where installed as part of listed equipment, if suitable overcurrent protection and disconnecting means are provided.
Originally Posted By: bgentry This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Okay, I see what you are saying, Bob.
It's hard to determine if DV is saying there is no protection at all or just no separate braeker in the main panel dedicated to the second panel. If indeed there is a 40A breaker in the sub, and the taps are on the load side...I don't see a problem.
-- Bradley S. Gentry
Superior Home Inspection, LLC
Harrisonburg, Charlottesville, &
Elkton, VA
www.superiorllc.net
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
nobody is completely sure of what they’re talking about.
Sounds like a quick way to get into a lawsuit if something went wrong.
Do yourself and clients the biggest favor you can, and TELL THEM you've not seen this arrangement before, AND by your understanding of electrical issues - you did not think it was wired properly or safely. Then defer to a licensed and competent electrician for further evaluation and repair IF NEEDED. After that stay out of it.
Better yet - next time you see something you think is WEIRD take photos so our guru's can see what you're seeing. Without that advantage your putting yourself AND your client way out on a limb by listening to us.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
Now that I'm in business for myself, you are more than welcome to join me anyday you'd like. I know I can learn quite a bit with you on my shoulder. Give me a buzz.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Sorry!
I disagree! Those lugs were put there for the supply they are not used for a feeder Tap.!
David, it would be best for you to look at the diagram in the cabinet, or on the cover for that information.
In the meantime this issue should be one that would not leave you with the impression that the information you received here is accurate.
Just my opinion, since I have never seen that type of installation during my career.
Let's everyone remember that the comments made here are only opinions and not the gospel truth, even mine although I would be willing to bet!
PS: I will be around a while until I start to travel again. What train stop is closest to where I could meet you sometime soon so we can spend the day during your inspections? I can be a ride along guy!
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
Sorry!
I disagree! Those lugs were put there for the supply they are not used for a feeder Tap.!
Joe what a surprise that you disagree. 
jtedesco wrote:
Just my opinion, since I have never seen that type of installation during my career.
I ask again when was the last time you actually installed or worked on a panel?
This is a common installation.
Of course that is just an opinion from a guy that has been installing electrical equipment steadily for the last 23 years, take it for what it's worth.
David you better get a more qualified sparky out to look at the panel, I am obviously not qualified to comment on residential panels.
I will go back to installing 3000 amp services and 500 HP motors. 
Strange how Joe T. is the only one to ever question my qualifications.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bbadger wrote:
jtedesco wrote:
Sorry!
I disagree! Those lugs were put there for the supply they are not used for a feeder Tap.!
Joe what a surprise that you disagree. 
jtedesco wrote:
Just my opinion, since I have never seen that type of installation during my career.
I ask again when was the last time you actually installed or worked on a panel?
This is a common installation.
Of course that is just an opinion from a guy that has been installing electrical equipment steadily for the last 23 years, take it for what it's worth.
David you better get a more qualified sparky out to look at the panel, I am obviously not qualified to comment on residential panels.
I will go back to installing 3000 amp services and 500 HP motors. 
Strange how Joe T. is the only one to ever question my qualifications.
Bob:
I am not questioning your qualifications, they are admirable!
I have not been installing electrical systems for quite a while, why is that so important to you?
I have, however, inspected many systems for many years and understand the electrical business enough to be able to envision many situations that were similar to those I came across.
You should not take a defensive attitude.
We have never met, and yet you have put a cloak and dagger in my shadow just because I don't agree with you!
I think that you should take it easy, when all we are doing here is discussing the situations that people come upon during their inspections.
As far as I am concerned, an inspection is for the sole purpose of uncovering situations that are likely to cause some accident, fire or electrocution.
I thought that you were a member of NACHI, what happened?
Question: How big is the Pecker head on a 500 HP Motor??  
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
I thought that you were a member of NACHI, what happened?
Question: How big is the Pecker head on a 500 HP Motor??  
On the NACHI membership I do not know, it went away one day and as it was a complimentary membership I did not pursue it.
The peckerhead....not large enough.
The specs called for 3 sets of 600 Kcmil and it is a tight fit.
As far as the rest...well we are just oil and water.
Not to much of a surprise, two guys that both are interested in the same subjects, have similar levels of pride, stubbornness, ego, etc. are bound to disagree on many items.
As a side note the 500 HP motors (there are four) run exhaust fans for a fire sprinkler testing facility.
It is pretty cool they light large fires (equivalent to a large single family home fully involved) inside a building and test how the sprinklers work.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob:
Peace!
The 500 HP motors sound like they are being used in a FM facility or some similar testing agency.
I would welcome a thread that would be related to a discussion that would detail some of the industrial and commercial jobs you have worked on, including those in progress.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
Bob:
Peace!
Cool and I will try, my stubbornness gets the best of me sometimes.
jtedesco wrote:
The 500 HP motors sound like they are being used in a FM facility
I kinda figured you might be ale to pin down the facility.  
I am not sure I can say a lot about what I have seen there. I will say they do a lot of things related to home building.
They shoot 2 x 4s through building walls with air guns, test explosion proof electrical gear, create dust explosions etc.
The company I work for wired their newest research buildings, I was out there the other day working with a testing company on the large motors.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: lkage This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bbadger wrote:
No, not a second service disconnect as those terminals above the breaker are protected by the 100 amp breaker.
If you turn off the 100 amp breaker it will kill the entire house.
Can we verify this by the panel label or some other way if we run into this ourselves?
-- "I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei