240V circuit fuses

Originally Posted By: jpope
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I came across this 240 volt circuit protected with two 30 amp fuses today.


![](upload://A6p3UqEJ2ZQVmPJbxJU4pUx08Tl.jpeg)

Was this common in fused panels? If only one fuse blows, the appliance won't operate, but there will still be 120V to the appliance ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Yes that is the situation with fuses, and it is still compliant.


Many of our large customers specify fusible disconnects instead of breakers for the service gear, this will be 3 phase equipment so one, two or three fuse may blow depending on the problem.


Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Jeff… I bet you found that fuse box on the dryer circuit. Yes? Oops, after taking a second look… make that the water heater circuit.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Here is a picture of what I mean, everywhere you see a red handle there is a set of 3 fuses.


Ignore the modifications and cardboard. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

![](upload://6sFCrZlV6zF8dDzlYplNMR3gctl.jpeg)


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Jeff:


Please describe the equipment or type of appliance. Is it 240 volt only or 120/240 volts?

Is there a need for a grounded conductor?

I see black and a white insulated copper conductors (size?) used for the supply (line side) and for the load, and the EGC's are connected in the switch too.

Again, what size are they and what type of wiring method is used?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpope
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jmcginnis wrote:
Jeff... I bet you found that fuse box on the dryer circuit. Yes?


These were on a 120/240V A/C condenser unit that was dated 1976.

I don't recall the specifics Joe, sorry. But I did notice the EGC's and wasn't sure if they were switched.

The one for the next door unit was wired a bit different.

![](upload://2sdCWUhUT2BCsS9ptene9xBW8Mf.jpeg)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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bbadger wrote:
Yes that is the situation with fuses, and it is still compliant.


Oops, no it is not. Not with plug fuses.

V. Plug Fuses, Fuseholders, and Adapters
240.50 General.
(A) Maximum Voltage. Plug fuses shall be permitted to be used in the following circuits:
(1) Circuits not exceeding 125 volts between conductors
(2) Circuits supplied by a system having a grounded neutral where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 150 volts

Quote:
Many of our large customers specify fusible disconnects instead of breakers for the service gear, this will be 3 phase equipment so one, two or three fuse may blow depending on the problem.


Because these use cartridge fuses.

VI. Cartridge Fuses and Fuseholders
240.60 General.
(A) Maximum Voltage ? 300-Volt Type. Cartridge fuses and fuseholders of the 300-volt type shall be permitted to be used in the following circuits:
(1) Circuits not exceeding 300 volts between conductors
(2) Single-phase line-to-neutral circuits supplied from a 3-phase, 4-wire, solidly grounded neutral source where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 300 volts


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpope
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So is this no longer compliant as it is a 240V circuit? You’re making my brain hurt Jerry.



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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jpeck wrote:
bbadger wrote:
Yes that is the situation with fuses, and it is still compliant.


Oops, no it is not. Not with plug fuses.

V. Plug Fuses, Fuseholders, and Adapters
240.50 General.
(A) Maximum Voltage. Plug fuses shall be permitted to be used in the following circuits:
(1) Circuits not exceeding 125 volts between conductors
(2) Circuits supplied by a system having a grounded neutral where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 150 volts



Gee Jerry my house IS "supplied by a system having a grounded neutral where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 150 volts".
So is yours I bet.
You can have a plug fuse disconnect for a 240v piece of equipment.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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The wording changed in 1975, then changed again in 1999 when an exception was incorporated into a positive statement instead of an exception.


Instead of making it easier to read, it complicated it.

Previously, in 1996 and before (back to 1975) it said:

E. Plug Fuses, Fuseholders, and Adapters
240-50. General.
(a) Maximum Voltage. Plug fuses and fuseholders shall not be used in circuits exceeding 125 volts between conductors.
Exception: In circuits supplied by a system having a grounded neutral and having no conductor at over 150 volts to ground.

Which means that you cannot use plug fuses on circuits where there is more than 125 volts between conductors.

Unless it was supplied by your standard grounded neutral system like almost all houses are.

Now, it simply states you cannot use them for circuits over 150 volts between conductors, but you can use them on circuits supplied by a system with a grounded neutral (like the typical house wiring), except that you also have the 125 volt between conductor limitation. You can do (1) or (2), but you can do so as long as (1) and (2) are true. Poor wording.

V. Plug Fuses, Fuseholders, and Adapters
240.50 General.
(A) Maximum Voltage. Plug fuses shall be permitted to be used in the following circuits:
(1) Circuits not exceeding 125 volts between conductors
(2) Circuits supplied by a system having a grounded neutral where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 150 volts

They were trying to incorporate the exception into the statement and it got all screwed up.

I guess what I am saying is it should not be done (for safety reasons, such as you pointed out), but when (if) the wording is corrected, it will be OK again. You are correct in pointing out that one side will still be hot when one fuse if blown and the other is not.

Did that make any sense? If it did, please explain it to me. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Greg read item number one one more time. 125V between conductors.



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: jpope
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eusa_doh.gif



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Perhaps we need to read the style manual but


240.50(A)(2) says


" Maximum Voltage. Plug fuses shall be permitted to be used in the following circuits:


(2)Circuits supplied by a system having a grounded neutral where the line-to-neutral voltage does not exceed 150 volts.


The handbook says"Plug fuses can be installed in circuits supplied by 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire systems and by 208Y/120-volt, 3-phase, 4-wire systems. "


Other places in the code where it says "the following"...
and a list, it is an OR.

Other examples of this language are in
225.30(B)
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for supply equipment accessible to all occupants, or
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to make two or more supplies necessary.

230.2(A) Special Conditions. Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems

334.10(A)Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:
(1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3).
(2) To be installed or fished in air voids in masonry block or tile walls ... yada yada

These are all "OR" conditions.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I went back to the ROP for the 99 code and read it again. They DID NOT change the intent of the exception. 240.50(A)(2) is the exception written in positive language.


You can’t use plug fuses on 240v circuits unless you have less than 150v to ground.


That is us.


They are still selling these plug fuse disconnects for water heaters. I agree it is not as good as a 2 pole breaker, I guess that is why there is the knife switch “disconnect” in there too.


Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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Jeez, what a brain buster. I’m glad I never see those anymore.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Brian A. Goodman wrote:
Jeez, what a brain buster. I'm glad I never see those anymore.


I bet you can still buy them at the BORG


Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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I bet you can still buy them at the BORG


Probably right. Nothing that comes out of those type places surprises me.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I am now confused.


I am not sure how to read that. ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)

Seeing as Greg went and did some research I am inclined to go with his version.


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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What’s the silver screw doing where the bare EGC’s are located?


Not a MBJ is it? What does the nameplate on the equipment say?

Is the flexible metal conduit "greenfield" outdoors? White wire for a hot leg?

Your pictures show different connections where the wires are reversed?

B/W on line side?
B/W on Load side?

then one picture shows W/B on load side?

Jeff?? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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icon_smile.gif http://www.munroelectric.com/catalog/bussmann/bussmann9.html





--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm