I used thermal imaging on the electrical distribution panel. And I see a 30 amp electric water heater breaker is pretty hot. I know it has a big load and I ran a lot of hot water, but how hot should it get?
Thanks
Seriously? 69.5f degrees? You’re kidding, right?
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It really would help you out to take a class or two on thermal imaging in home inspections.
Maybe get your Level I cert. at least or Building Science cert. or both.
Jeff’s right. I mean, 6 degrees variation in your image? It is nothing.
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Keep that device at home. You’re not qualified to use it for paid home inspections. You’re going to pass poor information to your clients.
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I’m just curious for you thermal imaging gurus, what would be a “normal” temp you would expect to find on the 30 amp circuit breaker? The OP said he was running a lot of hot water so would his finding be considered normal?
Question: What temp do you keep your HVAC thermostat set at? Considering the load of electricity creates HEAT, how does that compare with the OP’s temp reading? Also… he is assuming he is getting correct readings from his “Default Setting”, out-of-the-box camera. He needs training to understand the “Why’s and Why not’s”… not just random numbers thrown out from a MB!
Related: From an older thread, and some (Code) specs may not be current (pun intended), but good info to know…
And…
https://forum.nachi.org/t/hot-breaker-110-degrees-f/15629
And…
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Sorry JJ but I’m not getting at what a thermostat has to do with my question. I think that you’re hinting at the OP’s temperature reading may be incorrect.
That was your first mistake. Sell that thing or throw it away before it gets you into real trouble.
Doing thermal imaging in an electrical panel (or anywhere else) without knowing what you are doing is tantamount to committing fraud.
You need to learn what “Hot” is. The lowest temperature rating you will see in any residential electrical equipment is 60°C. (140°F). That’s basic knowledge that every home inspector should have. Your photo doesn’t depict anything as being “Pretty hot”. It’s barely warm.
Thermal imaging aside, you need some basic electrical training before getting into any more electrical panels. You are a danger to your clients and to yourself.
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It is not hot.
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I don’t remember saying in my original post that I am reporting these findings to clients.
Am I posting in the wrong forums? I know that I am still learning. I’m currently taking the InterNACHI certification courses and was told to post in these forums as part of the learning process. All I’m looking for is helpful answers to the questions I ask. ICA is way better at doing this. I would expect better from InterNACHI.
You didn’t say that you were just learning either so that’s why there is some confusion. There are some people here that can help answer your questions so ask away.
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Generally speaking, the temperature of a circuit breaker in a panel should not exceed 140degrees F. When it does, this means the circuit breaker is in danger of tripping.
As for thermal anomalies when inspecting, and equipment rated like you are using, scan around window and door fenestrations for energy loss, basement outer walls for the lack of insulation, around bathroom ceiling fans for moisture anomaly patterns.
It takes some time to acquire the proper credentials to understand infrared thermal images called thermograms.
Good luck.
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Great answer! Thank you!
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First, it does not matter how much water was run. As soon as the water goes below set point, it turns on. How long does it stay on? “Depends” on delta of incoming water. Just about everything in Thermal Imaging “Depends”.
Yes, it is incorrect. See all the yellow dots under that breaker? That is from “temperature reflect”.
So it was not corrected.
Again, depends…
First, he needs to remove the dead front to see the breaker and conductors.
What is creating the heat?
In school, you learn the complexities of apparent temperature rise calculations. The reading he is taking is from the surface of the breaker, maybe 4" from the heat source (which depends). Density and `conduction must be considered.
What is the load? Voltage and amperage required.
Is the load resistant or inductive?
What are we trying to protect? The breaker, the wire, or the building?
You know what the max conductor temps are for each type of conductor, you are an electrician.
It’s going to be a lot higher than 70F at those temps.
So, if you chose to work your science based upon a rule of thumb, you will be incorrect 100% of the time.
That is very correct!
You must know everything there is about the object before you point the IR camera at something.
Robert - Don’t get butt hurt. You’re not “still learning” if you took a course and came up with this question. Either you were not focused on the course, or the course is worthless. Taking the INACHI course does not make you “Certified” to industry standard. It is an ongoing educational/experience venture that never ends. No one knows everything about IR yet.
You are at the starting point, and the Inspection Industry is all about “reporting” significant issues". So everyone here assumes you are asking if you should report, or not. You did not state this otherwise in your OP.
Example:
Do you see the two shades of yellow?
The brighter one is effected by your reflection (or from something behind you).
What is your body temperature? Over 73F right? It’s lower because of the reflectivity of the object, which you must adjust the camera for, before capturing the scan.
This is rule #1. Do not get perpendicular with the object. It can be a Sheetrock wall, not just electrical stuff. Your camera also has a heater to raise the temperature of the ambient and it reflects from objects also.
If you actually had a problem, the darker yellow would be brighter yellow because of the location of the heat source. Your reflection is blocking the true emitted temperature.
Your camera is in the Auto mode. It will make any spark look like a forest fire!
A thermal scan is not a picture. It is a spreadsheet with data from every pixel your camera has that is working. So use the data (after you make the proper camera adjustments) not the picture to determine the problem. The scan is only for “Location” of the exception.
Your OP asked about how hot.
The crosshairs, which is where the measurement is being recorded. How do we know what the breaker Temp is? It’s not an apparent 67.7F is it?
So how can we be expected to give you any correct answer without proper and corrected data?
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So many things here.
First, Wow David. Nice summation of why training is so important for IR.
Secondly, Robert, you sound like you got your feelings hurt. Some years ago, I posted a similar photo and received similar comments. Instead of being offended, I realized I didn’t know what I was doing and shelled out some bucks and got some training. It wasn’t cheap and worth every cent.
Thirdly, Over and over, I see postings, comments, and reports from HIs that are damn near clueless over how to use or interpret IR. There is a perception that IR is a point and shoot camera. It ain’t.
Fourthly…So what is an acceptable temperature?
UL489 Standard states: Temperatures for standard rated breakers: the temperature rise on a wiring terminal at a point to which the insulation of a wire is brought up as in actual service shall not exceed 50°C (122°F).
And then measuring accurate and actual temperatures is dependent on all the things that David laid out. Basically, for home inspectors on 99% of inspections, IR use on service panels is of marginal use.
I think we provide better and more actionable information with what our plain ol’ eyes see. Melted insulation on the conductor at the breaker’s terminal doesn’t need an IR photo.
The photo below appears to show a pretty toasty terminal and conductor.
But when I touched the conductor with my finger, barely warm. (Yeah, yeah, boiler plate disclaimer inserted here…Children, don’t stick your fingers in panels)
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The only way you can truly learn is to accept when you are wrong.
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My pleasure.
I thought Will Decker was improving the course some time back?
Yes, and I helped out on that project.
That course is a bit too technical for the beginner, in my opinion. For those who know Will Decker, he has a degree in the stuff related to IR. His physics bleeds through sometimes. We tried to tone it down for better comprehension. People try to get through these training courses as soon as they can, and do not spend the time needed. Like my post above, which barely scratches the surface of that subject that I could talk about.
Obviously, the message is not being absorbed, from what we read here.
Also, one course and a couple of hours is not sufficient. It qualifies you to turn on the camera and make adjustments to get a correct scan.
Something never discussed that I know of; IR engineers specialize in one aspect of IR. A home inspector must know several. Electrical, Water leakage, Air leakage, Insulation, HVAC etc. You have to be up to speed on all of these before you point an IR Camera and take a scan to discuss in a report. How hot is too hot? What is the difference between air leakage and water leakage? What is all that other stuff behind those walls? Do you know what and where things go inside those walls?
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