Newbie here with quick question for the elders.
Came across sub-panel with 4 split breakers.
My instinct is to call this out?
Any advice? (photo attached)
Newbie here with quick question for the elders.
The main breaker for the distribution panel is in the service panel. The distribution panel does not have to have one in it.
Plus to be honest if you were shutting those down fast would not your thumb cover two @ on those tandems ?
As chuck said Subs do not require a main.
still finding my footing for what to call out and what is a non-issue.
I didn’t realize the 6 move rule was limited to the main service panel.
Bob, yes exactly what I was hoping to understand from those with tenure. I don’t want to frustrate agents and technicians by being overly tedious, while at the same time still do a good job with thorough and thoughtful observations. Of course these split breakers could be easily hit in unison, just wondered if they were generally thought of as 1 or 2 breakers.
An extension of my original question in an effort to better understand the safety issues with the panels… If there is a concern for efficiency in shutting down the main panel, why is that concern not extended to a remote distribution panel? For example, in my own home I have a sub panel in a detached two story garage. There happen to only be 6 breakers in the panel, but for inspection purposes it could have any number with no issue?
A detached structure is under different rules than a sub in an attached structure.
A tandem counts as two breakers. It does not matter if you could turn off several breakers at once. Each breaker counts as one motion of the hand.
tks for that distinction Jim.
happy new years…
Put it this way.Often while doing inspections I find issues that can be called out and should be called out but sometimes there is a fringe area or grey area where you can make a big stink over nothing or you can write it up but can explain in more human terms to a client in front of you.
I feel sorry for guys in areas where the client is not present most of the time because there are many variables including perhaps he plans on changing out the panel right after closing.
Guys may come here and argue blah,blah,blah but every client is different as is the property when it comes to onsite presence and report writing.
Many times I have a mentioned a hole in the drywall is a big issue in a million dollar condo but not so much in a falling apart rehab project and it takes brains plus experience on the job along with a little psychology to understand the difference otherwise you become a canned Inspector .
Now looking at this particular picture if it was a Main panel how hard is it to add 2 more breakers ?
Pretty easy ,explain this to the client ,explain why the code exists do you know why ? ]and explain about the fact there are blanks .Now if it is a full panel you have a little more to explain .
I like the “new Bob”.
He got rid of his crabbiness.
Did you get some stink finger or was it the award?
Good deal Bob,
yes, definitely want to knowledgeably approach the grey areas to be considerate of the variables. I plan to study further on this (and many other code philosophies), but i would assume the code for 6 hand movements is there so if a panel needs to be turned off quickly it can be done so. Electrical isn’t currently my strongest suit so advice and info from you guys is much appreciated. Tks again.
The disconnect requirement is not for the panel, it’s for the service. The service disconnect can be outside, completely separate from the distribution panel and the panel may not have a corresponding breaker or disconnect in it.
Technically, I would say it’s for the “building or structure.” Even detached structures require a disconnect when equipped with load-side (sub) panels.
I’m not sure who is teaching the rule of “six hand movements,” but this is completely inaccurate and should never be part of any training or educational material.
The “rule” applies to breakers or switches, or sets of breakers or switches - NOT hand movements.
I agree, I never use the term “hand movements”.
Most people could shut off at least 4 double pole breakers with one “hand movement”.
I usually just report 6 breakers (or other disconnect devices)
The wording is right out of the NEC.
The confusion come in by how a movement of the hand is defined or interpreted. Someone turning off 3 breakers with a large hand is not one movement of the hand.
Have to consider both together. I’m unclear as to why it includes the reference to movements of the hand as it clearly limits it to six switches and sets of breakers (i.e., tied multipole breakers).
So back to the original question: If the sub panel is in a different structure from the panel supplying it, it’s deficient. If it’s in the same structure it’s OK.
Can’t say I’ve ever seen that in the NEC, but I think it creates confusion and allows for misinterpretation.
I vote to have it removed :mrgreen:
Correct. A detached structure requires a means of disconnect. This could range from a single pole switch, 6 movements of the hand or a main breaker built into the panel or a back-fed breaker with a hold-down bracket.
You need to think outside of the scope of a small service panel because the requirement also covers large service switchboards that may be 20’ in length and have up to six large service switches.
Let get back to the original op PIC it shows a 12 breaker panel with 12 breakers installed 4 of them being Minnie breakers so in essence this panel is full if you were to add an additional breaker or breakers to this panel in the unused areas it could be overloaded. I can not see the label on the panel so I do not know if that panel is rated for Minnies . My guess would be its not rated
Adding additional breakers does not mean the panel is overloaded. It may simply be overfilled, but that would need to be verified by checking the label. That could be a 12/24 panel.