AFCI Layout and Locations

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1

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Here is a great image used to better explain the location and use of AFCI protection.

Courtesy of Mike Holt

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
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2

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Can you show me where the closet is considered part of the bedroom?


I am having an ongoing battle with a builder insisting that the closet outlets are not part of the "bedroom circuit."

In each new home, there are two light fixture outlets and three receptacle outlets in the closet. Two of the three receptacles are GFCI protected the other is not and is used primarily for the security system.

When the AFCI is open, the closet lights and receptacles are still powered.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
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3

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Jeff,


I will do some additional digging for you as we most certainly do not want a builder getting the upper hand on you...lol....


Heres the logic behind my submission to NEC 2008 -If the person must ENTER the bedroom and thus INSIDE the bedroom that all recepts and outlets ( exluding baseboard heat and dedicated AC units ) MUST be on ARC Fault including the closet outlets.

However you refering to the image which is just a method of wiring a room to AFCi and not the gospel of it as I did not make this image and I do not think it is trying to show the closet has to be on AFCI...only that the circuit that supplies it is on AFCI which means it must also because of that fact.

Why do I feel this way.....

Their is in most cases only one entrance location to this bedroom in most parts making only one egress point. The concept of the bedroom being on ARC FAULT contends that the closet is located within the bedroom thus making it part of the bedroom in general but again I am not sure why a EC would run a circuit to pick up plugs in a closet of a bedroom when they can pick it up via the circuit that is already their....NOW this is MY OPINION and what I have submitted to NEC for the 2008 revision...but again only my opinion.

Now if these are recepts. that are dedicated for a purpose like security panel and so on......he would have a great argument to have them on their own circuit because 1.) they never entered the room and 2.) they can't afford to be tripped by a AFCI for security concerns.

Now brings in the tricky part......per the NEC the switch to a light within the closet is not considered an outlet and thus the way the 2002 code is written it would not be required to be ARC Fault...now from a practicle point I am not sure why a EC would not put it on ARC FAULT since it is right their and easy to add it to the circuit......

If the switch controls utilization equipment in the bedroom, then it will be AFCI protected. However, if the switch operates lighting outlets for outdoor luminaire, closets or other loads not terminated in bedroom space then AFCI protection is not NEC required, because a switch is not considered an outlet ( yet in the definitions for outlet it is not so clear ).

So...now I have confused you even more.........

Basically......the NEC 2008 should address this better I believe but again if the circuit inside the closet it NOT part of the bedroom branch circuit then it just may be considered outside of the bedroom...this ends up being a AHJ decision as to me it is still technically within the bedroom but again I am not on the NEC Board....if the electrician wires the plugs onto the same circuit as the bedroom then they most certainly will need to be on AFCI....becomes a really grey area and arguments for both can happen which is probably why you had yours.

P.S......Next time I promise to use Spell Check...I have corrected myself like 4 times now.....GEEESSHH

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
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Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

4

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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lol…Now I know BOB will chime in on this because i have read some of his posts regarding this on Mike Holts…in that a Closet is not a bedroom.


lol...So I hear ya Bob.........chomping at the BIT...lol

The more the NEC evolves it will be better understood that the intent of AFCI and the next generation AFCI which is to come out by Jan 2008 will be expanding.

From what i am gathering it is going to be a AHJ ruling on this but I can tell you what we have discussed regarding this in electrical forums I am party to.......if you must enter the closet through the bedroom and the closet it PART of the bedroom it is part of the AFCi circuit but that will have to be radified and agreed to by the NEC Board.

I know...I know....a Closet is not a Bedroom.....but it is technically located INSIDE the bedroom where it becomes a issue for the AFCI's purpose has come to light and I just happen to be a AFCI supporter so this is my opinion but as stated above using the technical jargon of the code the switch is not an outlet but a device....now below is what the new 2008 code will have to address.

In the end Mr. Pope I think the AHJ will have to make that call as I am still searching and I believe the answer will lie in the definition of Bedroom down the road much like it does with the definition of Bathroom.

Ok...Bob..........Shoot away my friend. Thats what love about a forum !

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

5

Originally Posted By: dspencer
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The closet is part of the bedroom…but the argument would be the masterbath.

6

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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lol…with the NEC it is always something…lol…


But it depends...if the bathroom lighting is supplied from the same circuit as the bedroom then it would most certainly have the be AFCI simply because it is on the same branch circuit as the bedroom.

But is it OUTSIDE of the bedroom........lol.....thats a AHJ's call but I am sure the 2008 NEC will clear up this little understanding.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

7

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Paul, why would the baseboard heat be AFCI? They are usually 240v.


I won't kick the closet tar baby but I tend to agree with you if you want any consistancy in the hazard determination. Why would the NEC be consistant tho.? ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

8

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Paul


If I have to get to the master bath through the bedroom must I protect the bathroom with AFCI?

I can point to many code sections that will demonstrate that the NEC is well aware of the differences between bedrooms, closets, Bathrooms, kitchens etc.

Now if the NEC required closets to be AFCI protection they would use the word closet they know how and do so in other code sections.

Also, I have read the bedroom was chosen first for AFCI protection because bedrooms have the largest number of deaths related to electrical fires. That is bedrooms, I doubt many of the deaths occurred in closets.

Now we can argue that the closet is close to the bedroom but so what?

Imaging that the bedroom is next to a utility room, I could install the entire service in the wall that separates the rooms and none of that will be AFCI protected.

Put in a proposal but it will be for the 2011 NEC. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

9

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Greg…in my post I said " Excluding the Baseboard heat and AC units " not that they had to be AFCI…

–
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified


Electrical Service Specialists


Licensed Master Electrician


Electrical Contractor


President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter


NEC Instructor


Moderator @ Doityourself.com


Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

10

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
Now if the NEC required closets to be AFCI protection they would use the word closet they know how and do so in other code sections.


Basically it was my opinion that the deaths occur as well because the victim is unable to exit the bedroom area and being that even in the closet that is attached to the bedroom..a fire could happen leaving only one exit source from that room.

Hey brother.....I hear ya and it was only my opinion as the NEC was clear on their leaving out the term but my point was look for that to change more as the new NEC 2008 and beyond come out as we have had talks about it and people higher up than me on the FOOD CHAIN have given interest in the ruling changes.

But I hear ya....where will it end...when will it change and who will it effect are all things we can only give opinions on but in my opinion as stated in previous posts will mean the AHJ will have to make that call until it is explained better.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
11

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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pabernathy wrote:
I hear ya and it was only my opinion as the NEC was clear on their leaving out the term but my point was look for that to change more as the new NEC 2008


Paul I have no doubt AFCI requirements will increase, it will not surprise me that eventually all circuits will be AFCI protected. It is a great concept. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

I also have no doubts that AFCI technology will improve once it does I can see no reason not to take advantage of it.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
12

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I was looking at yellow cards for my favorite builder today and Lee County Florida is failing electric finals because the bedroom closet light is not on the AFCI. I heard it decided at the IAEI meeting that a closet was not a bedroom. So much for consistancy.