Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
NEC 210.12(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All Branch circuits that 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
Can anyone tell me, definitively, whether or not this applies to outlets located in the closet of the bedroom?
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I am leaning that direction as well Bob.
I had a New Construction inspection this afternoon and the clients "friend" was tagging along. Just so happens that he is in school to be an "electrical engineer," and insists that I should have the builder change out the breakers for the closet circuits.
I told him I would look into it. . .
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: gbeaumont This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Maybe we need to factor in the rules for habitable space such as windows etc to decide what is a room, what is a closet and therefore what should be AFCI protected.
Originally Posted By: bking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I would think the intent would be to prevent fumes from a faulty outlet, cord or corded appliance from affecting a sleeping person during the period before the smoke alarm detects it. Therefore if the closet door is not spring loaded to close itself then the AFCI would be beneficial since the airspace is shared and fumes could easily travel.
Would I write it up? nope, code says bedroom not closet. Watch them change it next time.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I will point out that the NEC knows the difference between bedrooms, closets, bathrooms, kitchens etc.
You can not install a panel in a closet.
You have to install GFCIs in bathrooms
You have to have GFCI protection in kitchens.
My point is if the NEC meant bedroom closets they would have said so.
If you have a bathroom only accessed through a bedroom would you say the Bathroom requires AFCI protection? Or would that bedroom require GFCI protection?
How about a hall that leads only to a bedroom?
Don't read things into the NEC that it does not come right out and say. 
A moderator at Mike Holt's came up with the following and I try to remember it anytime I read the NEC.
Quote:
Charlie?s Rule of Technical Reading
It doesn?t say what you think it says, nor what you remember it to have said, nor what you were told that it says, and certainly not what you want it to say, and if by chance you are its author, it doesn?t say what you intended it to say. Then what does it say? It says what it says. So if you want to know what it says, stop trying to remember what it says, and don?t ask anyone else. Go back and read it, and pay attention as though you were reading it for the first time.
Copyright ? 2005, Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle, WA
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
bking wrote:
Are you saying smoke detectors have to be on an arc fault circuit?
If so, what if they are not on the bedroom outlet circuit? AFCI's required on bedroom outlets....
Remember an outlet is not the same thing as a receptacle.
When we are dealing with the NEC we have to talk in the NECs language.
Quote:
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
An outlet could be a baseboard heater, a bath exhaust fan, a light fixture, receptacle, smoke alarm etc.
Quote:
Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.
So a receptacle is always an outlet but an outlet is not always a receptacle. 
Bottom line per the 2002 and 2005 NEC any 120 volt 15 or 20 amp outlet in a bedroom must be AFCI protected.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: bsumpter This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I was informed by a County inspector that if the closet contained an electrical outlet, it must be AFCI.
Oh, and don't slam me for this, but I was under the impression that house powered (as opposed to independently battery operated) smoke detectors utilized a transformer to supply low voltage to them. Does that mean the transformer is on a AFCI leg?
-- "In the fields of observation, chance favors only the mind that is prepared"
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
There is a loophole in that rule. It says 120v 15 or 20a.
It has been argued that if the smokes were on a 10a "alarm" breaker they would not need AFCI, nor would a 240v appliance.
There is also some discussion about what an alarm "system" is as opposed to single station alarms interconnected.
I have seen so many arguments about this they are a blur to me now.
I find this whole deal "much ado about nothing". The real intent is to protect for that alarm clock or table lamp wire you have pinched under the leg of the bed and buried in dust bunnies.
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
gbeaumont wrote:
Hi Jeff,
like the rest of the world I don't know the answer, but here are my pontifications anyway   
I believe that a closet whose enterance is through a bedroom could only be classed as apart of the bedroom space.
Now the question becomes "what the hell do we do if the bedroom walkin closet is big enough to be called a dressing room"
Maybe we need to factor in the rules for habitable space such as windows etc to decide what is a room, what is a closet and therefore what should be AFCI protected.
OK now I have confused myself I will shut up
Regards
Gerry
all my reserch has reveiled that to be a "bedroom", it must have all 5 of the following. 1) privacy door 2) heat 3) electricity 4) egress of at least 28'' and 5)a built in closet. if any of these are not present it is not a "listable bedroom" thats not to say it can't be used as one. this is also just realestate assesment and property tax jargan. if one is missing then the house must be listed as 1+ or 2+ bedrooms. not sure how that relates to out job though.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In real estate jargon a bedroom without a closet is a den but you can’t prove that in the building code. If it says bedroom on the plan, it is a bedroom. I suppose you could have a 5 “den” house with one bedroom.
Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg Fretwell wrote:
In real estate jargon a bedroom without a closet is a den but you can't prove that in the building code. If it says bedroom on the plan, it is a bedroom. I suppose you could have a 5 "den" house with one bedroom.
so who's "jagan" do we follow. it could be looked at 2 or 3 (maybe more) ways. i'm so confused. 
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jay you are starting to see the confusion factor that this AFCI deal can cause. Without actually looking at the plans as permitted it is hard to make a code decision but you guys are lucky. You can just go by what they say they are selling. Bear in mind the AFCI rule is not universally adopted.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jay Moge wrote:
so who's "jagan" do we follow. it could be looked at 2 or 3 (maybe more) ways. i'm so confused. 
When applying the NEC you will have to follow the NECs 'jargon' which many times is very different from the rest of the world.
The NEC has conductors that carry current considered 'non-current carrying conductors'.
The NEC has 'separately derived systems' that are not separate.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
