Aluminum branch wiring

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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hi to all,


Dennis , I was just re-reading this thread, and noticed your comment about K&T, for the purposes of this discussion, this would be a mute point as Aluminum single strand was only used for branch circuit wiring between 1965 and about 1974-75 so is there a reason that an AFCI breaker would not be an applicable fix and a sensible up-grade ??


Also guys play nice, lets keep this down to a home inspector speak level ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Mike,


Are you telling me that in a panel that utilizes k&t wiring, that you can just pick any neutral and say....yep that is the return for this circuit??? Sure there are ways of determing such but it surely is not possible by just looking at it. What would happen if your afci is on a phase A circuit and you attached a neutral from a phase B circuit to it?


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Dennis


Thank you.

"but it surely is not possible by just looking at it"

One of the reasons that one should be careful of a visual inspection.

"it must also have it's own separate neutral, or separate from other circuits in the panel."

In the panel all 'neutrals' are electically connected.

If you mean that the 'neutrals' might be connected after the panel I again say that this is a violation, at least since the 1934 NEC.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Gerry,


To best answer your question I would say that, yes a afci would be recommended especially in a older home. But certain things should be done first. A Afci does not work well to protect "all" faults in systems that do not incorporate a ground. Therefore, to provide the proper protection for "all" faults, a ground wire should be added. If you go the distance to add a ground, why not just rewire the entire branch circuit? My point in regards to the neutral needing to be separate for each afci circuit is a valid one. In k&t wiring systems, it is difficult to determine which neutral is being used for which circuit, unless testing is done to figure that out. To just install a afci breaker and to just pick a neutral to use for it is a improper wiring technique.

Especially with aluminum wiring though, a afci would be a great upgrade to the wiring system, but again, in my professional opinion, only if the installation is done by a qualified sparky and that all necessary testing is done to isolate the neutrals, as well as insuring a egc is present for the circuit being protected.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Dennis


"Therefore, to provide the proper protection for "all" faults, a ground wire should be added."

Please provide a source for this information. If I am wrong I will publicly apologize.

GFCI's do not need a EGC to work properly and to my knowledge neither do AFCI's.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Dennis wrote:
Especially with aluminum wiring though, a afci would be a great upgrade to the wiring system, but again, in my professional opinion, only if the installation is done by a qualified sparky and that all necessary testing is done to isolate the neutrals, as well as insuring a egc is present for the circuit being protected.


Here is my question, as wiring in the aluminum era was 3 conductor "NM" or "romex" type wire would there be any real diffculty assertaining which neutral (grounded) conductor would be applicable to which circuit, also checking the continuity of the ground (earth grounding conductor) should not be a real big deal.

I do agree though that this is a sepecialized area, and outside of what we do for a living, but Mike's post got me thinking (usually dangerous ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif) )

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Mike,


Of course all the neutrals are connected at the same place. The point I am trying to make is that each circuit has a neutral, it's very own neutral. However, in the case of a kitchen circuit, it may have a shared neutral. Afci's as well as gfci's will not work with a shared neutral. The neutrals must be separate for each circuit you are trying to protect.

Therefore if you just add a bunch of afci breakers to a panel without first separating and identifying the neutrals for each individual circuit you are trying to protect with an afci, the afci will not work. It will trip continually or at least at a nuisance rate. When wiring a afci circuit in new construction, a specific home run is installed with a hot wire and a neutral, and a ground, all it's own.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Gerry


"usually dangerous "

My posts or your thinking? ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Dennis


While I have not seen or used them it is my understanding that some AFCI's will work with a 'shared' neutral.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Mike,


I think on reflection of all the known facts.............probably both ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
"Therefore, to provide the proper protection for "all" faults, a ground wire should be added."

Please provide a source for this information. If I am wrong I will publicly apologize.

GFCI's do not need a EGC to work properly and to my knowledge neither do AFCI's.


Mike I did state "all" faults. They will still protect against some type of arcs, just not those related to arcs to grounds.....think about it. Gfci do not need to be grounded to give you gfci protection however, without a ground, you lose protection with a ground fault....think about that one too ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Dennis


You are correct.

That is why you 'must' install the "no equipment ground" sticker on GFCI's that do not have an EGC.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Now for Gerry…


Typically no. The reason for this is the way the wire enters the panels. In k&t wiring, you have conductors shielded by a piece of loom as it enters the panel. What you typically see are several of these conductors, some being neutrals and some being hot conductors. They are not tied together in the same sheath as you would find with nm or romex if you will. Therefore identifying neutrals with k&t is much more difficult that it is for romex where you have the hot and the neutral in the same sheath. I hope that answers your question.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Hi Dennis, yes I well understood what you were getting at, I was just trying to drag this thread back into the aluminum wiring discussion it started out as ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Actually I nearly succeeded

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Regarding K&T.


I have NEVER seen a K&T installation that was safe (to date).

K&T is not bad but every installation that I have seen has been either modified to make it unsafe or had insulation applied around it that makes it unsafe.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Oh well I tried icon_wink.gif


regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Geery…


Oops sorry bout that....I got sidetracked with Mike's comments about protecting circuits in a panel with afci breakers. But in all fairness not a bad post Mike. Just gotta be careful how it is done is all.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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oops GERRY even sorry bout that icon_lol.gif



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Umm not to get off the main thread here… icon_lol.gif but you know me I cannot resist.


I have had the opportunity to see a k&t installation that was safe......on numerous occasions but granted, with all wiring, aluminum included, what Mr. Homeowner or backyard electrician does to it will usually make any type of wiring unsafe. That's why they made sparkies.....who are licensed and insured and bonded and maybe even grounded too ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) . They made sparkies to keep all wiring installations safe....so that a HI can go gee whiz....this wiring is top notch in this house.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Dennis,


it's OK, I am getting used to it, seems like a group of electricians start talking about whether crunchy or smooth peanut butter is best, and hey presto it has morphed into a grounding and bonding discussion ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

where I started out on this odessy (more odd than anything) was there is much confussion about the best methods (other than ripping out) aluminum branch circuits, I personally recommend even "up-graded" systems to be further evaluated unless I know what, how and by who it was done.

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"