Aluminum branch wiring

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


I was reading a thread on another board about alumimun branch circuit wiring, and knowing that we have some terrific electrical minds on this board, I would like to hear the debate about the various "repair methods" employed to render single strand Aluminum wiring safe.

I have my own thoughts on this topic, but think our newer members would learn a lot from the debate.

OK, Bob, Dennis, Mike, Rob, Jerry and various Joe's

Go for it ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

OH, and BTW, when are you guys going to learn how to spell aluminium properly

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Gerry,


The only safe repair is replacement.

Regardless of what type of repair is made, that repairs consists of pulling the device from the outlet or switch box (resulting in unbending the aluminum conductors, making the repair, then inserting the device back into the outlet or switch box, re-bending the old aluminum. The problem (one of them) with the old aluminum is that it does take take bending, unbending, and re-bending - it fatigues and fails.

Thus, correcting the point of termination is only one of the issues, but, while doing that, you just worsened the other problem.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I lived with aluminum for 15 years and my ex still has the house. Personally I think if the devices are all coalr, have the goo on them and made up well this is not that big a problem. It is where you have copper to aluminum joints and where harry homeowner has installed 43 cent devices that you have the real problems. Aluminum demands higher workmanship than copper. Perhaps more than most production romex yankers can deliver.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The real problem is “old technology” (mid 1960’s to early 1970’s) #14 to #10 aluminum branch circuit wire. #14 aluminum BCW has to go. For #12 and #10 Al BCW the only acceptable repair is replacement or installation of copper pigtails at the receptacle/device.


The debate usually is about how you connect the Cu pigtail to the old Al wire.

Many say that using the purple Ideal #65 Al-Cu listed wire nuts (the only one listed for that I am aware of) is completely acceptable and a listed installation. Ideal recommends special procedures with "old technology" Al wire. I would consider those "recommendations" as being mandatory.

According to the CPSC using a special COPALUM connector is the only permanent repair, and the use of wire nuts with a special procedure is only a "temporary" repair. The problem with the COPALUM connectors is there's only one manufacturer, with special equipment and training required. So even if you can find someone to do the work, the cost may be prohibitive.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/516.pdf
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml03/03120.html
http://www.homewiringandmore.com/aluminum/index.html

Note that the last link to an article on repairing Al wire it notes that CO/ALR devices can be used, which I disagree with for really old Al wire (and is not listed for that use or recognized by the CPSC as even a "temporary" repair). These may be acceptable for some older Al wire, but not the "old technology" Al wire.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

(P.S. "aluminium" ... hmmmm ... I think you need British spell check software ... LOL)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I run into aluminum branch conductors a lot. I flag it and recommend evaluation by a licensed electrical contractor. I referr the Client to the CPSC for further information. As these homes are older, I also suggest the Client ask the electrician as to what he/she thinks about replacing all receptacles and switches with newer devices, including installing the proper pigtails with compound. This all goes into the report.


Replacement of all branch wiring is not a realistic option, IMO, especially in a market where aluminum conductors can be found almost anywhere.

Rob... I've never seen #14 aluminum in any local residence. #12 is the smallest I've seen around here. One common defect I see is the #12 connected to a 20-ampere breaker... a sure sign that Harry the Homeowner has struck. I sometimes see a copper pigtail coming off a breaker, then wire nutted to a copper branch conductor and an aluminum branch conductor... Lovely.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Please look here at the second address for Aluminum Wire Repair:


http://www.joetedesco.com/links.htm


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jfarsetta wrote:
Rob... I've never seen #14 aluminum in any local residence.

Not so common around here, but some areas with very old Al wire might have #14 Al wire on 15A breakers ... either a complete replacement, or they will need interconnected smoke detectors and fire extinguishers in every room for when (not if) the wiring fires start ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Also, some think that using CO/ALR devices/receptacles is acceptable for "old technology" wire. IMHO that is not an acceptable repair, the CPSC does not consider that even a temporary repair, and many question the listing for those devices since they were tested/listed for use with newer (e.g. AA-13000 or AA-8000) Al wire ... and not "old technology" Al wire ... even with anti-oxidant compound. The high expansion/contraction rate of the "old technology" Al wire is a problem no matter what device is used.

So IMHO if you don't see Cu pigtails on very old Al wire (mid-1960's to early-1970's) with either the special purple wire nuts or COPALUM connectors, then red flag it. I also think a licensed electrician should check out the purple pigtail connectors just to make sure they are installed correctly and holding up well ... just to be safe, as the CPSC considers these temporary repairs.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Gerry


I recommend that if the wiring 'appears' to be in good condition a replacement of the panel be made and that AFCI's are installed to protect those circuits. Expensive but not as much as a total rewire.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Mike,


Interesting idea, I wonder if AFCI's are available for any of those 30 year old panels, to be quite honest I had not thought about that concept, although on the face of it, it is a workable senario.

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Hey Gerry


I recommend that the panel be replaced also. Square D QO series. Along with the panel replacement comes the proper grounding/bonding of the electrical system.

Why? That is what I put in my home.

Side note: Some insurance companies require that older homes be examined by a licensed electrical contractor. I am sure that some of you have heard this. I state this because 'you' should take extra care when commenting on the electrical of older homes.

It would be bad if 'you' said that the wiring is OK later to find that the buyers could not get insurance for that home

Please be careful.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Typically, if I encounter branch circuits wired with “aluminum” (did I spell that right?), wire, I recommend that the circuits involved be re-wired. However, the method of crimping these circuits in junction boxes is sufficient and I have at one time or another made repairs by doing such. The key though is to protect the aluminum and the copper connection from corroding and therefore causing hot connections.


Jerry is also right with his response. The aluminum wire itself should be checked to see if it has been bent several times, etc. Unlike copper, it is a softer metal and irregular or constant bending of such wire will ultimately cause it to break off.

The most common place I see aluminum wire is at the main breaker and line side of the meter can. There it is vital that these connections be torqued and protected with some sort of de-oxidant. Same holds true to connection at devices as well. Any termination point where aluminum to copper is present, must be protected with a de-oxidant and torqued. I personally seldom use aluminum wire to feed new panels because of the problems with it. The only real time I would use al wire to feed a new or existing service is in the case of a underground feeder. Otherwise, I seldom use it.

When stripping the insulation on al wire, care must also be taken that the wire itself is not nicked by the strippers. This in itself can cause a problem area, and if that wire that is nicked and cut is brought to a wire nut, it will assuredly break off when the scotchlok is twisted to it.

I do not think adding afci's to circuits that are not rewired is such a good idea Mike. The afci requires a separate neutral much like a gfci protected circuit. If the circuits you are trying to afci protect are not wired separately to each afci protection device, the breaker is likely to trip constantly or at least tripping enough to let it be a nuisance. In older houses this would not be a good idea for one does not know where that neutral the afci is utilizing, is going. It could be the only neutral in the whole dang house for all any of us may know.

The best repair is rewire of the circuit...period. Sure it may be costly due to labor mostly, but then it could be the case of..."pay me now or pay me later", when it comes to aluminum wiring in any environment.

BTW How goes it Gerry......long time no talkie.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Dennis


"It could be the only neutral in the whole dang house for all any of us may know."

Unless you are taking about K&T this is a violation and an unsafe condition.

"The afci requires a separate neutral much like a gfci protected circuit."

???

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
I recommend that the panel be replaced also. Square D QO series. Along with the panel replacement comes the proper grounding/bonding of the electrical system.


Even though a electrical panel is replaced and all the bonding and grounding to it is done, it does not ground the entire electrical system. The only way to insure proper grounding is done to the entire system is to rewire the circuits needed to be grounded. In the case of older homes, where k&t is present, changing out the panel only grounds and bonds the panel........nothing else. You can also add 3 prong receptacles and add a ground wire to every single one of them, but if your panel is not properly tied to earth ground.....do you really have grounded receptacles? Some controversy arises here as well in the case of circuits wired with bx. Nevertheless, unless the circuits are actually provided a ground wire, they are in fact, not grounded by just replacing the electrical panel.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


hi Dennis, all goes well this end, like you say it's been a while, i was beginning to think you'd abandoned us ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Here is a picture from the site that Joe suggested (which I also agree is one of the best on this subject) it shows the type of instalation that Mike was discussing, where the panel has been swopped out and the splices put into a seperate enclosure.




I am personally still thinking about the AFCI issue, Dennis's comments not with standing, but it still cuts to the same thing in my book, that is further evaluation by a licensed contractor

regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



“Along with the panel replacement comes the proper grounding/bonding of the electrical system.”


This statement assumes that the installation was inspected by an ESI.

It was never meant to infer (propose) that EGC would be present at all required locations as a result of a 'panel' upgrade.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Gerry


I do not understand the link?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/afci.jpg ]


In this pic please notice Mike that there is a load and a line neutral. The neutral has to be the one to protect the circuit you are trying to protect. When you wire a gfci circuit, it must also have it's own separate neutral, or separate from other circuits in the panel.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Sorry Mike neither did the message board system ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) when I used windows XP power tools to resize the shot it tagged (small) with a space to the end of the file name and the BB can't do spaces.

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Gee Gerry that has to be the nicest panel I’ve ever seen…ummm except for mine.



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“If you cannot identify the neutral for any branch circuit in that panel”


If that is the case that individual should not be working on that panel.

Mike P.