Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Regardless of what else is wrong in that panel, it needs to be taken out …
No, not just because it is an FPE (okay, for that reason too), but because it was installed sideways with the bottom row of breakers being 'on' at gravity down. If not horizontal or radial, they must be gravity 'off', i.e., 'on' up.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpeck wrote:
The first FPE you posted was designed that way (FPE made those types), this one, however, was just turned sideways by the installer.
How can you tell? Is it simply the position of the main breaker? It didn't look like a "make-shift" installation. Everything seemed to "fit" properly. The cover opened upward, the dead front cover fit properly with a top and bottom screw. The meter was directly beneath and the underground service entrance was below that.
One thing I didn't like was the absence of both the grounding and neutral bus bars. Neither were visible with the dead front cover removed. I wasn't going to search for them at the service entrance or near the meter.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I just came from a house with an FPE stab-loc, aluminum wiring, and a triple tapped water heater breaker, two copper and one aluminum. Oh Boy, whatta house!
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpeck wrote:
Regardless of what else is wrong in that panel, it needs to be taken out ...
No, not just because it is an FPE (okay, for that reason too), but because it was installed sideways with the bottom row of breakers being 'on' at gravity down. If not horizontal or radial, they must be gravity 'off', i.e., 'on' up.
Of course, once that is removed, why put it back?
Is this a code somewhere or is it just opinion? Most breakers I've seen takes good pressure to flip...doubtful gravity could turn them on??? 
Originally Posted By: dfrend This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Not sure of code references, but there are GOOD reasons. Asa firefighter on a ladder truck, a primary responsibility in an fire is to shut off ALL utilities. When you cannot see your hand in fron of your face, you need to rely on feel. We are taught to flip the switches DOWN. So if they are down, they may not get shut off in confusion and someone seriously hurt.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
kmcmahon wrote:
Is this a code somewhere or is it just opinion? Most breakers I've seen takes good pressure to flip...doubtful gravity could turn them on??? 
NEC
VII. Circuit Breakers
240.81 Indicating.
Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open ?off? or closed ?on? position.
Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the ?up? position of the handle shall be the ?on? position.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpope wrote:
How can you tell? Is it simply the position of the main breaker?
Yes, that is what I was basing it on. All the ones I've seen with the up an down breakers did not have a main in them, they were just panels, but the enclosures where intended to be installed horizontally instead of vertically like that one looked like it should have been.
I say "looked like it should have been" because you just said ...
jpope wrote:
The cover opened upward, the dead front cover fit properly with a top and bottom screw.
Those were not clearly evident in the photo, although I did wonder about "side" screw when these always have the bottom sliding screw. Based on your last post, that is because the "side" screw was the top screw.
Looking at the photos closer reveals that the top ledge which the dead front cover slide in under is on the top, not the left side, which is further indication that this is probably installed as it was designed.
The photos do not show enough to see the cover and which way it opens, but between your last post and looking for better clues, I think you are correct in that this was made to go horizontally. Like I keep saying, I'm still learning, all the time.
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
It would make sense that the panel was installed incorrectly horizontally rather than vertically. The word “Main” is sideways and not above the main breaker, and half the breakers have on in the "up’ position an d the other half not…unless of course he had his camera turned!
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dfrend wrote:
We are taught to flip the switches DOWN. So if they are down, they may not get shut off in confusion and someone seriously hurt.
Why not just take out the meters ... a friend who is a firefighter said that is one of the first things they do. No meters = no power ... unless someone illegally bypassed a meter ... and they look for that.
jpeck wrote:
240.81 Indicating ... Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the ?up? position of the handle shall be the ?on? position ... Code.
Yes ... but only since around 1984. Before that would be grandfathered, but maybe still a "concern". Not a huge deal in my book.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
roconnor wrote:
jpeck wrote:
240.81 Indicating ... Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the ?up? position of the handle shall be the ?on? position ... Code.
Yes ... but only since around 1984. Before that would be grandfathered, but maybe still a "concern". Not a huge deal in my book.
*not a huge deal in your book*?
Absolutely a huge deal in my book.
I don't care if that was only changed in 1984. It may have been changed BECAUSE one manufacturer (FPE) started the stupid practice of making panels that way. By the time this gets through the code cycles and into the code, thousands of those things were probably made and installed.
Then ... POOF! ... they are no longer allowed. I don't know the history of the reason for that change, but I think common sense by most manufacturers worked to make it unnecessary, until someone started making them with down being "on".
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpeck wrote:
Like I keep saying, I'm still learning, all the time.
I appreciate your input Jerry. When we stop learning, it's time to close the lid. . . on our coffin 
I thought maybe there was some "tell tale" sign that I was over looking. What say you about the absence of the grounding and neutral bus bars?
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jpeck wrote:
I think common sense by most manufacturers worked to make it unnecessary, until someone started making them with down being "on" ...... Absolutely a huge deal in my book.
If you associate that with a certain manufacturer, yes it's a huge deal. But, by itself I dont agree it would be a "safety hazard" that requires evaluation/repair by a licensed professional right away.
IMHO it's not really that down is "on", it's how the breakers read in that upside down position ... energized/on would read "NO" ...  ... It is a concern that should be noted, and explained to your client that the upside down breakers will read "NO" when in the energized/on position. And if it's an FPE panel, that's just one more reason to red flag it ...
jpope wrote:
... absence of the grounding and neutral bus bars?
Do ya have an overall pic of the panel with the cover off.
Also, is that scorching of the main buss ... a significant problem with FPE panels sometimes ... or possibly some corrosion?
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Yes Robert, that pic shows scorching and corrosion. That was one reason I recommended replacement of this particular panel.
The first pic at the top of this thread shows almost everything there is to see. It's missing about one inch at the bottom, but the bus bars were not visible with the cover removed.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
