Is a bonding jumper needed in this case to the “house side” of the water lines? This is a really odd set up (at least in my area) where the water line(s) exiting the meter go into the floor (and presumably travel for some distance). Does this effect the need for a bonding jumper over the meter?
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The copper piping should be protected where it passes through the concrete, so if installed properly, concrete will have zero effect on anything!
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Yes, there should be a jumper over the meter, if for no other reason that you can’t determie how far the line is underground. You need a minimum of 10 feet of underground metalic pipe for a ground, but also, who’s to say there wasn’t a repair done and they used plastic where you can’t see it, which would negate the ground.
This is the reason I always call out insufficient ground if there’s no ground rod insalled, or there’s no Ufer ground.
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Good points.
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Not necessary in this instance, as the Panel Ground jumps over the meter directly to the potable water supply.
(Very common practice in Minnesota 50s-70s builds).
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There was no bond point found on the house side of the water pipes though. The conductor with your arrow goes right to the panel.
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Why do you need a Bond?
That’s what I said, so again, why is a bond needed??
As for me, if they are using that as the only ground, and unless I can verify 10’ of metallic pipe underground, which I can’t. I’m calling it out as insufficient ground, but even if there is a jumper I’m calling it out, because of so many plastic pipe repairs that are used today.
I need to see a ground rod or an Ufer ground before I will consider it a good ground.
Minnesota has been using the (metal- Lead/Copper) water supply piping as the only ground system for over 125+ years with few issues.
Plastic wasn’t used for water supply until the 70s-80s… and wasn’t even retrofitted in older homes until the 90s. When a repair needed to be done. the metal was replaced with plastic for the enrire supply distance, no cheap ass “repairs”.
Remember… Minnesota has a Frost Depth of 4.5 to 6.5+ feet, which limits where plastic can be installed.
My understanding has been that copper water pipes need to be bonded, and that bond cannot pass through the meter. So all of the water pipes on the “house side” of the meter are currently not bonded.
Because the Water Meter contains plastic/nylon (non-conductive) parts… thus no electrical continuity can travel through it.
Since “By-Passing” the meter with the ground was done, there is no concern of a break in continuity due to the meter.
Capish’?
Right, but…
But, my reason for questioning whether a bond jumper is needed is because kinda technically, the house side of the water pipes are bonded through the concrete and/or earth with the utility side of the meter. But, as Kevin said, we can’t verify that, so a jumper would be best.
That being the case, Bonding would be useless as there would still be a broken ground path!
A jumper over the meter only addresses the issue of the meter, nothing else.
Gotta say, I’m a bit surprised with your questions here. I deemed you to be more knowledgeable regarding electrical issues.
Fooled me, I guess.
I don’t think you understand my question/scenario. That’s fine.
I believe Ryan is asking how the metallic piping on the house side of the meter would be bonded. The ground has been established on the street side of the meter or pressure device.
Yes, but I guess more specifically, to boil it down, is there any scenario where the concrete and/or soil could act as the jumper over the meter? I guess that is my question, in a nutshell. Both the house side and utility side pipes travel through the ground and/or concrete. I’m pretty sure I already know my answer, but the fact there never appeared to be a jumper installed, and this panel had inspection stickers, made me double think it.
Ok, but won’t there still be a need for a ground on the house side of the meter, in case a cold line gets energized due to an electrical fault?
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Yes a bonding jumper is required around the meter so if the meter is removed for maintenance or some other reason there is still continuity between the GEC connected to the street side of the meter and the rest of the metal piping system.
The fact that the piping enters the concrete after the meter has no bearing on the bonding jumper requirement. A water pipe electrode is also required to be supplemented by another electrode typically two ground rods or a CEE (concrete encased electrode).
250.53(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe.
If used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
250.53(D)(1) Continuity.
Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
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Not an issue. Water pipe bonding is not required.
Metallic water systems are required to be bonded.