Definition of a construction term: Structural member

Originally Posted By: Sybil Brakken
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Question re: definition of a construction term


In our county, a builder can not remove more than 25% of the ?structural members? of a building which is built very close to a lake. A builder removed at least 75% of a cabin when he removed the roof, the second story and the first story right down to the floor deck. He left the chimney standing, the foundation and the first floor decking and is claiming that he left 75% of the structural members because the chimney had 2,200 bricks and each brick is a ?structural member.? Can you please define ?structural member? for me as it applies to this issue.

Thank you,
Sybil Brakken
slbrakken@yahoo.com


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Sybil,


No, sorry he is wrong. Even so, brick is not usually structurally necessary to the "chimney structure", it is cosmetic to make it look pretty.

You are talking about two seperate structures. One is a chimney structure and the other is a house structure. When you use the term as you have implied I would define it as any portion of the walls or floors, meaning the wood lumber used to frame the house. You could also consider to foundation a structural member, so to speak. Not that you need one in the house but if it was there and you removed part of it, it would most likely cause the house structure to collapse but that again is another structure to make the house.

As you can see they can be many seperate structures that make up a house but are not really necessary to make it a house. Some do not have basements, some don't have chimneys.

It sound to me like you are a codes enforcement official and trying to bust his buns. Do you have any idea of why the 25% rule was put there in the first place.

I would have to spectulate that a previous person in your township (or county) had the wisdom to keep the plumbers (or anyone else) from hacking the floor joists, support beams or support posts meaning they can only cut away 1 inch out of a 4 inch joist which would weaken the integrity of the joist if they cut away more. I heard most engineers use a 1/2 rule, I use 1/3 myself meaning if they cut away more than 1/3 of the joist I recommend it be repaired.

Hope this helps.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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that is a constituent part of any structure or building


Definition of "support" : the act of bearing the weight of or strengthening; any device that bears the weight of another thing; supporting structure that holds up or provides a foundation


Definition of "supporting structure": a structure that serves to support something

Definition of "constituent" in this instance: an artifact that is one of the individual parts of which a composite entity is made up; especially a part that can be separated from or attached to a system


Fun stuff... right... See where I'm going with this? The rule in question deals with the OVERALL structural integrety of the ENTIRE DWELING, especially as it pertains to life and property. To Joe Myers' point, the chimney is a small part of the entire dwelling. The sum of the chimney's individual components tie back to the definitions, and its order of importance ties directly to what percentage of the house the chimney affects or makes up. Why I'm so deep into this is beyond me. I'm getting a headache. Bottom line is that the builder is blowing smoke. Tell him he's wrong and shut him down... End of story...

Sybil, what's your role in all of this? Surely the AHJ shut this guy down, no?


Joe Farsetta


Originally Posted By: Sybil Brakken
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Thank you Mr. Myers and Mr. Farsetta for your quick response and helping me clarify the definition.


I'm not a codes enforcement official - just a lake protection advocate that wants to have the new zoning ordinances in our county (that were enacted specifically to protect lakes) enforced. I'm a full time resident and do volunteer work for local and state non-profit lake protection associations and am married to a teacher.

The guy in question is the son of a property owner on the lake I live on. He visits up here a few weeks in the summer and the rest of the year lives in a much more temperate climate working as a contractor/builder in his father's construction firm (or maybe as a partner in his father's firm.)

Short (?) story: He applied for a permit to raise the roof, put on a couple of dormers and put in new windows on an old cabin on a tiny island, was denied a few times, then approved. He tried to hire 2 local contractors to do the job but, according to him, they were too busy. He hired a contractor from a neighboring county and put his name on the permit. Somewhere along the line, the plans changed. The zoning office knew about it. Then the contractor from the neighboring county was gone (?) and the owner/contractor brought in his crew of 6 from several states away to do the job. The zoning office didn't know about that. We called the Zoning Administrator when we saw how much of the old cabin had been removed. The ZA did an inspection that day and put a 'stop order' on the job. The owner/contractor went to the ZA, said his building materials would be ruined if he didn't continue and signed a paper that he would proceed at his own risk. He enclosed the 'new' shell, put the shingles on and the windows in.

The issue went to the County Board of Adjustments where the owner/contractor talked about how much he loves the lake and wouldn't do anything to harm it. He said the ordinance's 25% rule was too ambiguous to understand, that he just didn't know what was meant by 25% (25% of what - area, mass, etc.?) and truly believed that each brick was a structural member. The county attorney then brought in the ZA and asked him if a brick was a "structural member." The ZA said, "I don't know!" The county attorney bought it and advised the board that if even the ZA couldn't define "structural member" then the ordinance is too ambiguous and they had to allow the project to continue!

We have a law in our state that makes all navigable waters part of the public domain. My understanding of the reason for the 25% rule is to eventually phase out the old, non-conforming cabins that are 0 to 40 feet from the ordinary high water mark on lakes. It's a lake protection measure based on many, scientific studies that have been done in several states.

I feel that if the guy really loved the lake like he said, he would have said, "There's a problem with the ordinance. You need to clarify it but I will not take advantage of this opportunity to go beyond the spirit and intent of the ordinance."

My take on this: the slick city guy pulled a fast one on the hicks from the sticks. Or, maybe there's more to this than meets the eye! At any rate - I don't think it's over. Too many people are worried about this setting a precedent and weakening the ordinance.

What's your take on it?


Originally Posted By: Sybil Brakken
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I forgot to tell you that the cabin’s foundation is a crawl space, not a basement. I don’t know if that matters but, I wanted to clarify! I also forgot to ask, what is ‘the AHJ’?


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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AHJ is “authority having jurisdiction”. In your case its the local building department, zoning off, etc.


The crawlspace is a non-issue, really. What amazes me is that the building department cannit provide a clear answer as to whether the bricks are structural members in this case? I say this case, as sometoimes bricks make up the structure of the home. In your case, they do not. This is as clear as the nose on your (or my) face. And, if this guy doesnt know which parts count as structural members, someone should shut him down for being dumber than a sack of hammers when it comes to building. This guy should be planting tomatoes instead. If he was being honest, he has no business calling himself a builder.

The guy is slick, alright. He clearly caused his own hardship in this matter. You have enough info to bring it to the attention of the AHJ or the county folks. The rule is NOT as ambiguous as it seems. It seems that some local officials are clueless. Where the hell is the building department in all this? They cant determine if the chimney bricks are structural? You gotta be kidding!

Joe F


Originally Posted By: Sybil Brakken
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Hi Joe F.,


You're right. The Zoning Department and the Board of Adjustments are the AHJ here. Much of this info came out at the Board of Adjustment hearing so all of the AHJs are well aware of what's going on. They are the ones that said he could proceed! Our next step is to try to get the case reopened. You're right again. The local officials do seem to be clueless. We don't have building inspectors in our county (we really are in the sticks!) but the Zoning Administrator should know the terminology to do his job. Right?

Sybil


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Sybil,


How could a 25% rule possibly "save the lake", so to speak? If they are interested in moving the houses back from the lake, how would not allowing removing more than 25% of an existing house save the lake from pollution let alone anything else?

While maybe you and others do not like what he did, it does present itself as being sneaky and deceitful but unfortunately the contractor was correct about the codes being too vague and broad in scope to be enforced.

If you have an environmental study that could clearly show by doing this it will have an environmental impact on the lake you should take this fight up with the EPA or you state department of environmental resources. You would be more likely to get a response from them than you would the local AHJ. Just a thought!

BTW...My name is Joe, Mr. Myers is my father! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers