Doesn't look right part 2

Heres the pic.

114 Beck Ave 028.jpg

A Bit Of Anatomy:

1, 2. Incoming Hot wires. There is 240 volts between these wires, or 120 volts between either wire and the neutral line. 3. Neutral wire. This is at the same electrical potential as the ground. At the main breaker only, the neutral is connected to ground. 4. Ground Bus Bar. This strip of metal has a row of screws for connecting the ground wires of the various circuits. 5, 6, 7. Neutral Bus Bars. This panel has 3 short bus bars for neutral wire connections. Some panels have only one long bar. 8. Circuit Breakers. Each single-pole breaker connects to one of the two hot bus bars. Each double-pole breaker connects to both of the bus bars (thus providing 240 volts between hot wires). 9. The last available space in this panel. Our new breaker will go here. Note in the above photo that there is no main circuit breaker. This is a main lug type of panel, used as a subsidiary panel (sub-panel). The breaker that feeds this panel is upstream, at the main panel.

This appears to be a typical distribution panel and also appears to be wired correctly.

The “six throw” rule does not apply to this panel.

Thanks for the info. This house is a duplex but with 2 sets of overheads and two separate meters. Both service panels have their own main shut offs. I had never ran into a setup where where the ground and neutral were attached to the neutral lugs. I’ve seen the ground sharing a lug but not doubled up. You can’t see it in this pic, I have others but you still won’t see it due to limited visibility and the angle but the sec’s on both panels are aluminum and the circuit branch for the dryer and stoves are aluminum. The insulation on the sec’s is cloth and bare in a couple of spots. The thing about it is these panels were upgraded 10 years ago!

Actually Darrel, the panel in your picture had problems (I addressed them in your other post). I was referring to Tyrone’s picture in my response. . .

Isn’t the looping of the 2 hots a defect?

Why would that be a problem William?

Jeffery, I prefer Will.

A looped electrical wire, especially at these voltages and amps forms a pretty strong magnetic field. I thought that excessively long SECs were not allowed.

Am I wrong?

I prefer Jeff :slight_smile:

I suppose that may be possible but I believe more looping would be needed to cause a problem. Personally, I don’t see them as excessive.

I’ll let one of our sparkies tell us if it’s an issue.

I hope it’s not an issue because I’ve never noted it yet I see it all the time.

No problem with the loops, just a bit longer for the next guy in case the terminations have to be redone. This is better than having to splice a short piece to the ends that are too short. :smiley:

I agree with Joe. There is no problem with the loop. I do it myself when there is ample room in a panel. Its just a small effort to ease future repairs, etc. Going back to the early days of school… I’m pretty sure that one loop will produce no appreciable gain in magnetic field, especially without an iron core.

I bow to the experts. I understand that there is nothing in the NEC against it.

I was taught, by an electrician, that runs of electrical wire are not allowed to engle more than 360 degrees. He was also an architect and owned a construction company.

From my physics days, I ran a test and got a wopping guass reading from inside the loop. Maybe someone could verify for me.

Will, it was my understanding when in the electric industry, there was a limit to the bend of the wires. Something like the width of the wire times…soo much, I am not sure. BUT, it was done all the time, I have done it many times and was never turned down on an inspection by the state.

Except that once when we had 500mcm turned so tight to hit the factory lugs in a machine, the Electric inspector said it was to tight of a turn. We had to use motor lead wire that was larger in size than the 500, but easier to bend.

**The minimum wire-bending space at terminals and minimum width of a wiring gutter **in a panel (cabinet) is an important consideration and depends on the size and number of wires at each termination.

Deflection of conductors at terminals, or conductors entering or leaving cabinets or cutout boxes and the like are required to comply with Article 312.

[FONT=Times-Roman][size=1]Bending space at terminals is measured in a straight line from the end of the lug or wire connector (in the direction that the wire leaves the terminal) to the wall, barrier, or obstruction.[/size][/FONT]

In the picture here there is plenty of room and before 1984 the space was limited and should be considered by a home inspector.

Thank you to all for the input. I didnt think there was a problem with the loop but I did report all the other problems as well as a double tap that wasnt very clear in the pic. There was stranded aluminum in the other panel as well and the insulation was falling apart in that one. I thought it was a typical Joe home owner update but he said electrician did it.

Stranded AL is generally okay. . .

Jeff, the only problem I cited with the AL is the worn insulation. I wish I had a better pic but the visibility and angle were bad. (There was maybe 1.5 feet of access between a shelf and the panels, which was reported as well).


To sum this up…the picture is of a Bow-Tie style…while it is great for getting extra wire it is really a waste of space, and wire if you ask me. However, the loop itself will not cause any magnetic issues that should be worried about.

AS joe stated I believe…the only real concern in these cases is when the wire is bend to fit into the lugs at angles that exceed the requirement for cable itself in regards to bend radius.

I just happen to think bow-ties look nasty in a panel…but hey thats me.