Educational Course

Inspection Education Topics Inspection Education & Training
21

Will,

I am confused. And this goes to the notion that HIs are NOT Code Enforcers (the AHJ).

So, you are telling me that, a home built in 1958, with no GFCIs, has a significant defect due to the fact that there are no GFCIs installed, because the home wasnt brought up to current code requirements (as of todays requirements), and the GFCI hadnt been invented when the dwelling was constructed?

I flag it as a recommendation, but not as a defect. Arent there rules for what percentage of a home must be renovated prior to requiring it to be brought up to current code requirements (applicable at the time of renovation)?

22

Joe F.;

Let me be clear here. It is a somwhat nuanced situation and only applies to the State of Illinois, as far as I know:

The state HI law actually defined a defect class, ‘Significantly Deficient’ in the law and Administratiev Rules of the law (which is part of the law, by law :roll: )

Here is the link to the state’s web site and the administrative rule I will be quoting from : http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068014100C02000R.html

Sub-section a, 10 reads:
“Significantly Deficient: Unsafe or not functioning.”

I guess we can all understand what not functioning means. A roof that leaks is not functioning. A furnace that will not light (for whatever reason, like the gas was shut off) is not functioning.

Unsafe is also defined:
" Unsafe: A condition in a system or component that is a significant risk of personal injury or property damage during normal, day-to-day use. The risk may be due to damage, deterioration, improper installation or a change in accepted residential construction standards."

So if something that deals with safety, as GFCIs and AFCIs do, does not meet current safety standards, it is significantly deficient and must be called out.

Comments?

23

It is my understanding that the 2008 NEC will require all outlets in a dwelling to be protected by AFCI’s!

As far as your comments, they are your opinions and may apply in some places in the areas you inspect, my reference to the Illinois Housing Rules is a Law and seems to make it clear that any remodel will be as per code, and that would make your inspection easier.

PS: Can I see the actual layout of the class you are presenting next month, how many topics and how much time will be given for each, and the test when and how will that be administered?

This should not be a problem, I only whnt to be sure that I understand what will be covered. Please…

24

“It is my understanding that the 2008 NEC will require all outlets in a dwelling to be protected by AFCI’s!”

This is interesting news. Thanks for the heads up!

“As far as your comments, they are your opinions and may apply in some places in the areas you inspect, my reference to the Illinois Housing Rules is a Law and seems to make it clear that any remodel will be as per code, and that would make your inspection easier.”

Joe, Joe, Joe. You still can’t seem to see beyond your own little world into ours. It is not my opinion, it is the friggin’ state law! You can check it, again, for yourself. I dare you to. Here is the link (for the 4th time) directly to the state’s web site:

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068014100C02000R.html

Check out items a) 10 and 15. Couldn’t be clearer.

BTW: The state’s administrator in the Division of Professional Regulation and my lawyer agree that this is the intent of the law. I have to live and work here and my license states that I have to obey their administrative rules and the state law, so I guess that means that your ‘opinion’ isn’t irrelevent, doesn’t it.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I don’t know how many times I have told and posted and written you. This is the law!

So, it is not my ‘opinon’, it is state law. Check it out for yourself. Last I heard, state law overides local ordinances (we call them ordinances in Illinois, not regulations). State law, within Illinois overides even (Beleive it or Not!) the NEC.

Nice try, though.

"PS: Can I see the actual layout of the class you are presenting next month, how many topics and how much time will be given for each, and the test when and how will that be administered?

This should not be a problem, I only whnt to be sure that I understand what will be covered. Please…"

Joe;

It is a problem. You have been told this many times, both publicaly and privately. You seem incapable of understanding this.

  1. I wrote the currently approved state electirical course for NACHI and have submitted it to NACHI and they have all rights to it as faw as Illinois State Approved CE. They own it, Joe. I gave it to them. They didn’t steal it. I, freely, gave it to them. It is not the course that includes your booklet. Your ‘course’ is not currently approved by the state. If you want to submit it, under your own state continuing education providers license or someone elses, be my guest. Hope that they allow you to teach it, but I recommend that you actually read the state law before you do.

  2. I am a home inspector. That is what I do and how I earn my living. If and when it is taught, and if NACHI decides that I should teach it, I will recieve NO money for teaching it. If they choose to reimburse me for mileage, fuel or motel room and board, I will be greatful for their generosity.

  3. But I am not a professional educator (although I have taught college level courses at two major Chicago Universities). I do not make my living teaching classes. I have not entered into any royalty agreements or handshake deals with Nick. As far as Illinois State approved CE credit, NACHI owns the course. Clear?

  4. If it seems like I have an insect up my colon about this, that is true. I, two nights ago, attended a State approved CE course given by a member of another association. It was for 3 state CE hours (state requirements are three 50 minute periods, minimum. From the instructor’s first words to when he, personally, graded my exam and the official state completion certificate was put in my hands, only 1 hour and 21 minutes had passed! What a friggin’ joke! The course was very sad.

That is what happens when professional, state required CE becomes that cash cow for theives, and I say this with all due respect to your education and experience, vendors of state required CE.

You are not an home inspector. You are a genius in what you do, but you are no home inspector.

Let me make myself clear:

  1. I cannot send you anything with regards to the course. It is not mine to send to you and I have been told by people who have authority over me, specifically, not to send it to you. You cannot understand this because of your worldview so I will make it perfectly clear. I will not send you a copy of the course because, if you prefer, I am a jerk. Do you understand that? Does that make you happy and justify you low opinion of me? If the only way you will stop hounding me for a copy of the course is for you to believe that I am a complete jerk, I can live with that. I hope, though, that you can understand what I have, many times, told you.
  2. I will and am doing everything I can to make quality state CE courses available to NACHI, nationwide, and for an inexpensive price. I will not accept the premise that NACHI, or its members, should pay vendors, like you, $1,000 per diem to teach us stuff. Yet such vendors are not home inspectors, don’t know what home inspection is all about (as you have proved many times) and would rather teach than actually work. This is the real problem. The vendors want to teach us what we alredy know, but in words and ways we cannot understand. They also want to get paid, real well, for the privledge!
  3. You do not ‘only want to know what is covered’. I have, many times, personally on this site, through phone calls and e-mails, tried to explain to you what the course was about and how you should change your ‘style’ to make it relevent to home inspectors. You plain just don’t listen. I am beginning to believe that you are incapable of learning this, but I hope I am wrong.
  4. You want to teach this course in Illinois for state CE. That is NACHi’s decision, but I have been told that it ain’t going to happen. You want to get your ‘grand a day’ gig back. I understand, really, I do. But it is not going to happen.
  5. You believe that I ‘stole’ your course. That is not true and I will prove it to you whenever you like (like in Florida?). Your ‘book’ was the only thing that you contributed to NACHI or the NACHI Chicago Chapter. Ken Demski and I wrote the PowerPoint presentation, the outline and the test and answer key. We, together with Russ Myers, put in over 90 hours doing work to submit it to the state for approval. And you expect that you have the only right to teach it? What gaul! You stated, to me and Russ, that you ‘couldn’t be bothered’ to even make up a test! Then, after you ‘taught’ it to Illinois inspectors (before it was fully approved), you again ‘couldn’t be bothered’ to even give and proctor a test. Russ spent endless hours trying to clean up your mess with the course attendees and with the state. Do you know the liability you put NACHI into? A real teacher knows that education is a complete process, not just showing up, being the star and getting paid. I wrote, along with the invaluable help of Ken Demski and Tom Noble (Master Electrician, Former Chicago Electrical Inspector, Instructor at the Union school and my friend since 1st grade) the other electrical course. It is not ‘your’ course. It is totally different and written for home insectors. Yours was not. It bears no resembelence to you ‘booklet’. It is an original work.
    Hope this answers your questions.
    –
25

**

**

Please list and describe the seminar objectives.

26

http://www.nachi.org/forum/report.php?p=11493

Shame on you! I never taught a class in Illinois and it was in Missouri and just one person was expecting the CEU’s.
work.

27

Will Joe all you did was talk about codes. We home inspector our not code enforces. Yes I wanted credit an no I was not the only one who want the credit. The other one did not want to go though the hassle to make up the test that you where to give. The way you an other present the course was wrong. You where just there to blow wind. I can not call out codes an that is all you talk about. Sorry you think that want Russ & Will is doing is wrong but at less they have gone Thur the trouble to due it the right way. I’m sure that it is more for want home inspector or to look for instead of codes. Just my opinion.

28

Joe;

  1. I merely posted the announcement, on Russ’s behalf. If you desire further clarification of the course’s content, I suggest you contact Russ.
  2. You did present the class to Illinois inspectors, 3 I believe. Presenting a state approved class is much more than getting up and ‘teaching’ it. It also means that you:[LIST=1]
  3. Know the state law. You do not.
  4. That you know your class. You are not a home inspector and do not know our needs nor our subject requirements. In fact, I believe that you have shown, publically, contempt to our profession. My opinion, only.
    *]Take responsiblity, as an agent for the State Licensed Continuing Education Provider, to make sure that the class is given in accordance with state law and meet all the requirements of the law. You can’t do this because you do not know the law and refuse to learn it and have refused to proctor the test.
    [/LIST]Joe, I would stop while you are ahead.
29

OK So Russ says you are offering this to other chapters “free of charge” but you are charging for the one you are holding in Chicago? I would like to bring this to Milwaukee. would you email me with some details on what is needed to do this.

30

David;

Contact Russ. He will send the materials out to Chapter Presidents.

We charge for the room and food. Only $25.00 for NACHI members. Non-members are $90.00 I believe.

31

David;

As the President of the Greater Milwaukee Chapter, you may request a CD of this course from Aimee Jalowsky, at NACHI Headquarters.

The 6 hour Course materials are free.

We are trying to make this course available through NACHI State Educational Administrators, in the lack there of, the local Chapter Presidents.

The reason for this is because the CD also contains all the quiz questions and answers, as required to be given at the end of the course by NACHI, and within those States which require a license, such as Wisconsin, in order to get your NACHI / State CEU’s,

The Chicago Chapter is charging $25.00 for the course, to cover expenses…Room at Holiday Inn, Continental Breakfast, Lunch. simply covering cost.

As the State of Wisconsin presently does not have a NACHI, State of Wisconsin Educational Administrator, any ideas as to who might be capable and willing to handle this position.

32

David;

Since the course is state approved in Illinois, you might want o think about getting it aproved in Wisconsin as well. In that way, both Illinois and Wisconsin inspectors could take it there and get state credit as well as NACHI credit.

I will help, if need be. I don’t know all the Wisconsin requirements, but I could learn.

33

William:

I think you missed Joe Tedesco’s point in his posting:

5.04.01:
The National Electrical Code, the local electrical code, and these guidelines shall govern all electrical work performed on new construction and renovations of existing buildings. Whenever there is a conflict in the requirements between the regulations, the more stringent requirement will prevail.

[FONT=Verdana]State and Municipal electrical code requirement only trumps the NEC if the local requirement is more restrictive. Not less. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I also believe you are misinterpreting if you believe Inspectors do not inspect to Code.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]If you make comments within your report with regard to GFCI or AFCI, you are citing code if you are identifying a Safety concern with a recommendation of correction / upgrade. [/FONT]

34

I am curious as well.

What type of Checklist is NACHI suggesting is acceptable for Electrical Inspections?

35

Will, if I may refer back to a post you had with Joe Farsetta where you refer to ‘significant defect’ or ‘not functioning as intended’ as described by Illinois law. I always recommend GFCI upgrades in older homes but I believe they are grandfathered from required upgrade. Isn’t a grangfathered non-GFCI outlet functioning as intended? It was not intended to be a GFCI at the time of construction. Is it considered a ‘significant defect’ in a granfathered home with adequate service capacity, no double taps, proper wire size, etc;? Once again I have been recommending upgrade only.

Thanks

Erol Kartal
ProInspect

36

Erol,

I don’t write lack of GFCI’s as significantly deficient either.

I recommend them in my report and stress their importance. Maybe it’s just me, but I save “significantly deficient” for items I consider deadly or major. It’s also reported in red so it’s not missed.

I believe if you yell “fire” too often, clients tend to disregard your warnings as alarmist.

I may have to revisit the issue after a consultation with my attorney as to the requirements of the statute however.

Would hate to think I should have been using that term alot more. :ack!:

37

Hey Jeff.

I agree that it is a concern that should be addressed in the form of a written recommendation as we do. Like yourself I cannot see using ‘significant defect’ for something that is allowed depending on the age of the home. I just read the Illinois SOP again and did not see where we should require an upgrade in our report.

Erol

38

Will Joe all you did was talk about codes. We home inspector our not code enforces. Yes I wanted credit an no I was not the only one who want the credit. The other one did not want to go though the hassle to make up the test that you where to give. The way you an other present the course was wrong. You where just there to blow wind. I can not call out codes an that is all you talk about. Sorry you think that want Russ & Will is doing is wrong but at less they have gone Thur the trouble to due it the right way. I’m sure that it is more for want home inspector or to look for instead of codes. Just my opinion.

Here is want was posted on Mon, Jul 18th, 12:42 PM James Bushart is Yes anyone who came from the ILL was Expecting the CEU you us failed to due want NACHI pay you to due.

(Please RSVP Jim at homeinspect@socket.net Everyone is welcome to attend this open-door home inspection event. Attendance counts as 8 hours toward NACHI member continuing education requirements. The State of Illinois has awarded 3 CEU credits for this course.)

39

Attendance counts as 8 hours toward NACHI member continuing education requirements. You got these!

The course was changed to 6 hours, 3 hours was what was offered and the PROVIDER WAS SUPPOSED TO GIVE THE TEST WHICH WAS NOT READY!!!

40

Besides the fact that we are not code inspectors, when you start talking code with a client you open up a new can of worms. From a legal stand point you may be looked at as a code expert. Then you may be held liable for any code issues you didn’t find/report.

Erol Kartal
ProInspect